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{Written by Ken} |
There are
far too many Christians who want truth to fit into a nice box, their box, and
their perspective. They too desire to be true to God’s Word, but we find that
they are so black and white, right and wrong, that they are even more far right
on issues of submission than we are. All truth must stay in a tension with others of God's truths, and once
one truth is out of its tension against another, one falls off the
horse of truth and into something God does not intend for us to believe or live.
The
Christian life is intended for us to try to learn all of God’s will and to walk
in His ways, as we walk in the Spirit. We find Pharisaical attitudes
prevalent in our segment of Christianity, where we are all on the same side of
trying to honor God at His Word, all of His Word, yet we disagree with those
who reject a scriptural common sense where Christians are intended to walk in
the Spirit of Truth, and not "the letter of the law."
On Lori’s
post Stipulations to Our Obedience a few wanted to
take Lori to task for suggesting that a Christian wife who disagrees with her
husband is to “gently tell him why you disagree but if it is not against
God's commands, obey him.” One accused her of creating loopholes and the other implied
that a wife could not express any disagreement without showing her facial and
emotional expressions in an unsubmissive manner. We strongly beg to disagree
with such faulty thinking and teaching, and we do this with scripture.
The perfect example of godly
submission is Jesus Christ in His relationship with His Father. Not only are
they One in all things, we are told that Jesus willingly submitted to the
Father. As the apostle Paul teaches us in Philippians 2:5-8:
“Have
this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who,
though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be
grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a
servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in
human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even
death on a cross.”
Jesus is
our perfect example of what our submission should like to God, and in turn a
wife’s desire to submit to her husband. Did Jesus ever make a request of his
Father in sorrowful pleading? You bet He did as the Word says,
“And
going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, ’My Father,
if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but
as you will.’” {Matthew 26:39}
Notice
now that not only did Jesus express Himself and His desires clearly, He also
added that He was willing to suffer what God had planned for Him from the
beginning of time. His submission was never in question, even as he asked the
question, “If it be possible.” Note that Jesus’ request was even
wrong, as He in His humanity was asking for something that God the Father in
His infinite will could not grant Him because God knew what was best for Jesus
and it was to suffer death so that He and His children may be gloried. Hence, I
find that even a wife’s wrong request is not sinful, so long as she is willing
to accept the answer “no,” and to submit.
Also
notice that Jesus did not say it once and drop the matter, but instead asked
twice. Although we might encourage a godly wife to express herself once, and if
she knows she has been heard, drop the matter and submit, we are not opposed in
vital matters for her to make a second request. If she feels the matter so
critical to her marriage and family, she is invited to ask a second time, maybe
even a third. Look at the Word on this matter:
“Again,
for the second time, he went away and prayed, My Father, if this cannot
pass unless I drink it, your will be done" {Matthew
26:42}.
I am
sorry, but those who have boxed in submission to mean that a wife ALWAYS obeys
her husband, as it says “in everything” and never with questioning him on the
matter, you have fallen off the horse of truth and must try to get back on. The
best way to get truth back in tension is to check your heart on the matter. If
your heart’s desire is to please God in everything, then indeed you will desire
to also submit to your husband in everything. But there are times, hopefully
very rarely in a godly marriage, but perhaps not so rare in a marriage where a
wife is married to an unbeliever, where a wife must continually check her heart
on this matter, and follow her husband in all things that are not clearly
forbidden by God’s Word.
The
concern for some is that many a wife may find this to be a “loophole” where she gets to pick and choose which
areas she is to submit. She may make up her own views of what the Word permits
or does not permit, and in doing so she has taken the reigns of the
relationship and given herself an excuse not to submit. We understand this
concern, and it is something that perhaps far too many Christian wives do to
their husbands at times. For instance, it is not permissible in the context of
godly submission for a wife to make up things that she feels the Word says, but
in an area that many other godly believers would claim Christian liberty. No
matter what your individual opinion about the Word may be, if it is not in
conformity to what other godly believers would counsel, you must submit your
will to your husband. In other words, a wife does not have permission to make
up her own things of rights and wrongs or not submit in items of conscience,
unless it is clearly defined in God’s Word. And a godly submissive wife should
always question her own motives for why she does not want to follow her
husband’s lead.
Lori’s post
was quite clear that “if it is not against God's commands, obey him.” This
rightly assumes that a wife first stands in allegiance to her Lord and Savior,
and second in submission to her own husband. Not her own loving husband, her
godly husband or her sacrificial husband, but her husband, even if he is not a
believer. But that said, God does not desire a wife to obey one of His strong
and clear precepts of wifely submission just to blow off other clear Biblical
commands. In all other areas of liberty, a wife is free to submit to her
husband, even if she disagrees, and I believe she is covered by his authority
when her conscience goes against his desires, yet she willingly submits. This
is not to say that her conscience does not move her to ask a second time: “Will you let this cup pass
from me, but if not, your will as my husband be done.”
We, as
Believers, have much to be accountable to by God’s Word without adding in things
that are not clearly forbidden. Let’s learn to trust in walking in the great
liberty that the Lord gives us, and in all things not clearly forbidden, see them
as permissible, yet some, or many things, still yet not profitable. If a
husband decides to have you enter into an area that is permissible, yet you
believe it unprofitable, express your concerns once, maybe twice, then enter
into his will with joyful obedience if his mind cannot be tempered. The results
may be that in time he will come to “be
won without a word” or
perhaps you will be won by a change in thinking realizing that indeed our God
of liberty is not against what your husband desires. Either way, God is honored
in the lessons learned, especially the valuable lesson learned by a husband
that even at times when he is wrong, his willing companion sets aside her own
will to conform to his will, just as Jesus has given us the perfect example of
submission and humility.
How can
a wife win a husband if she is not willing to follow, even at times when her
spirit thinks that he is wrong? Pick your points to voice your concerns over
clear Biblical violations, not on preferences or questionable issues. For the
greater goal of a Oneflesh marriage is the conformity of two wills in harmony
with God’s Will. And it is the husband’s responsibility to set the direction of
the wills, and a wife’s role to willingly, and may I add, joyfully follow, if
it is not clearly contrary to God’s Word.
Obey them
that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your
souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not
with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Hebrews 13:17
Sharebear · 478 weeks ago
Jessica · 478 weeks ago
There have been many times when I have not agreed with decisions my husband has made and yet have submitted to his authority (sometimes joyfully, and sometimes, shamefully, not so much!). And some of those times, the situation seems to go south and I feel justified in my disagreement with his decision (whether he was aware of it or not), only to learn that it is playing out exactly how it was supposed to according to God's plan and in the end, it works together for good and I realize that my husband's decision was the right one. The difficulties we may have faced were God's way of refining us. It strengthened our faith and proved, once again, that God's ways are the correct ways. (But usually, it works out just right and I really was just being emotional or overthinking it, lol!)
Again, it all boils down to our reasons behind our choices. Are we seeking God's will above all, or our own self interests? (I hope that all made sense! I kept losing my train of thought as I needed to tend to on or more of the children's needs, lol!)
Sue Bee · 478 weeks ago
Ken · 478 weeks ago
If a woman works for a boss, why does she have so little trouble following along with what her boss thinks is best for the organization, the success of the company and indeed his team? Leadership of all sorts must decide the tie breaker in issues of disagreement and lead forward in issues where the marriage needs to go. God has designated the husband as head and leader and although his leadership must most certainly look out first and foremost for the desires and will of his wife, he also is responsible for leading. You can't lead if you are always caving in to what a wife wants and you believe it to be wrong.
Most areas should find common ground, especially when two are working together for common purposes. The church is the body of Christ, not some larger structure of a building or denomination. So long as a husband is on firm footing with the clear teaching of the Scriptures he should feel free to lead forward. If he is not on firm Biblical ground, a wife may point this out to him, and there is no arbiter necessary as both parties should research the issue to determine together what indeed the Bible says about the matter. A husband should be patient in leading his wife and willing to gently take on her challenge if she believes he is leading wrongly, to either correct his leadership or prove that he is on solid Biblical footing.
Probably the biggest issue I see is not husbands who are constantly overstepping their leadership, but wives reticent to follow. If a wife finds herself regularly out of step with a husband's desires and she has no clear Biblical grounds to defend her position, she needs to ask herself if indeed it is her husband's leadership at issue or her unwillingness to follow the clear Biblical command, "Wives submit to your husbands in everything, as to the Lord." There can be nothing clearer than this when it comes to God's will in a marriage.
Sue Bee · 478 weeks ago
My question is who has the authority to determine what Scripture teaches and Ephesians 5:24 is a great example. To one man “everything” means everything sinful or not. To another man “everything” means only what is clearly not sinful. Those that believe the latter must then define what is “clearly not sinful.” There is plenty of grey area in regards to finances, contraception, child raising and appearance.
Mrs M's comment points out that in the military there is a chain of command and if one’s immediate superior is wrong one can appeal to the next up the chain of command. Without church authority there is no higher authority than the husband’s personal interpretation of Scripture, right or wrong. If the husband believes the wife submits to her husband in everything (literally) then it doesn't matter if the husband is wrong, it is not the job of the wife to question his authority period.
Ken · 478 weeks ago
"In everything certainly" cannot mean to rarely submit, or cautiously submit and question everything. It also cannot mean commit murder or go into sins the God clearly delineates or God would be contradicting Himself. So what is left over? A small amount of grey as you call it, and in that grey each wife must recognize that the Lord holds her accountable not for getting it right or wrong, but for her desire to please the Lord in all things. It will become very apparent if her submission is real or under false pretenses, and false submission is a worthless sacrifice.
And yes, a husband can be wrong and yet a wife may submit. God does not say that a husband must be right on everything as he leads for he surely will make some mistakes. True leadership is not trying to win, nor trying to displease a wife, but rather looking out for her own good and the good of the family. So a Christian wife should have nothing to fear from her godly submission, even when her husband doesn't get it right all the time. If getting it right all the time on either side of the marriage was a requirement for a happy and God pleasing marriage none would exist. Even a wife won't get submission and respect her husband all the time, even if that is her desire.
No, we do not need the church authorities coming into family matters to decide if a husband has it right or wrong, except on matters that are grievous. The church is not necessary to know what God's Word teaches, no matter how much you wish to find it complicated or easy to misunderstand. If the Spirit of God lives in us we are told that He guides us all into His truth. (John 16:13). Jesus was not speaking to just the church authorities but to all Believers.
I agree on 99% of God's Word with almost all truly born again Believers and the areas of disagreement with the plain teaching of the Word is mainly over doctrinal issues that no one can ultimately answer until we see Jesus face to face. That is how plain the Word really is.
Mrs.M · 478 weeks ago
This concept of the chain of command with God obviously at the top of the chain applies to ALL positions of authority, whether the authority is that of a husband, law enforcement, etc. Failure to understand this concept is also why people are so confused on the issue of if a husband is abusive or not. If a husband is abusing his wife, he is violating not only our civil laws, but also God's moral law and strict command that "husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body," Ephesians 5:28-29
Therefore if a husband is committing both a crime and a sin against his wife, and requiring her to participate in that crime and sin by allowing it to go on, then she has both the right and the duty to take the issue "up the chain of command" and involve the civil authorities as well as church authorities (not saying that those authorities "outrank" the husband, but they can step in on God's behalf).
And for those who want to argue about what constitutes a clear command in God's Word and what doesn't by that logic you could say we don't know ANY of God's commands to us because how can we know if any of them are clear or not! That is obviously faulty logic and this is where common sense comes in. Over the course of a marriage the amount of times a wife might have to disobey because what her husband is asking is an outright sin I think would be pretty rare, unless he is an unbeliever. And Jessica gave great advice to really question your own motive. If he is asking you to murder your unborn child, or watch pornography there is no way you could argue Scripturally that you don't know that is sin.
Ken · 478 weeks ago
How many marriages do not realize that they are suffering God's discipline and the natural consequences of not following God's order of things. We found this out the hard way, but now are enjoying God's blessings on our marriage.
Carrie · 478 weeks ago
Ken · 478 weeks ago
Lori read me your comments which she will not publish as they are so far off the horse of truth.
If a husband is beating his wife this is not in keeping with any Biblical precept and against many of God's commands and admonishments. To propose that a wife is to submit to such abuse is exactly why this post was written to prove that in things against God's Word a wife has no obligation to submit.
We are told by God to obey the law, so any wife being beaten should go first to her pastor and friends and if the abuse is anything significant call the authorities and get help for herself and her husband. Spending a few days or longer in jail may be exactly the cure for something so unbiblical.
Your concerns that somehow this post will lead submission to abuse is fallacious and ridiculous. Please get back on the horse of truth and ride well so as not to fall off on such unwarranted thinking.
Dave · 478 weeks ago
So Jesus is not simple to understand, not clear, as Paul says? “Far right” is political correct language and worldview; rather let’s use biblical language. “Truth stay in balance”? In balance with what, some other worldview? Does Jesus -- the Truth -- need to be balanced with an opposing force, with someone or something else? Are you thinking balance Him out with Satan, because if you are not for Him you are against Him? No, truth is truth and does not need to be balanced with anything; again, a classic PC [or ‘carnal’ in biblical language] perspective.
“One truth becomes disproportional to another truth” – should I laugh at this, cry, or get angry? Where is ‘not follow the letter of the law’, as you imply? Loving God is keeping His commandments – the law. Christ came to fulfill the law. His salvation is meaningless without the law. Law is how we know we have sinned, how we know the boundaries between life and death. “…a spiritual common sense”? Where is that in the Bible? It is our faith to take God at His word when it does not make sense or we do not like it. That is our salvation - believe in Jesus, the Word become flesh. ‘Walk in the spirit’ does not mean do what we want or a convenient way to say that those that disagree with our words are not ‘in’ it. Rather, it means our life aligns with scripture, having seen the simplicity of Jesus Paul speaks of. Otherwise, we become our own God with our own religion. And how can a husband be won without a word, as you quote, after having been told by his wife how he is wrong WITH a word – or now 2 words and on to 3 as you have increased it to since your last post on this topic? That is a contradictory statement and creates confusion, unless of course you are saying God was wrong or not speaking through Paul regarding ‘without a word.’ And this begs the thought: will you say next time ‘four times the wife may speak with a word’? Do I hear 5, now 6…? Is this per day? Or will he be spared just once those limits over his lifetime. Who will keep account of these times she has used words? The can of worms is open.
It is good to point out the analogy of Christ’s pleading with His Father to spare Him the suffering for something He did not do. This is in scripture to show that Christ was human flesh and had our feelings [‘dwelt among us’], as well as to demonstrate the weight [sweating blood] of all sin against God. The Psalmist pleaded also. And scripture makes it clear we make our requests known to the Father, in humility with thanksgiving – answered requests limited to those that are aligned with His will. But we don’t correct God. We don’t challenge His authority. That is the whole point of “without a word” – a wife correcting her husband in his ways. That is the “black and white”, the “Pharisaical attitude” line drawn in the sand in scripture that you refer to.
“Jesus’ request was even wrong.” Wow! What Book of the Bible is that in? Or is that new scripture? So where else is Jesus wrong in scripture. Should I throw my Bible away because He is wrong?
Actually, biblical submission does fit in that box you show for it fits into the Bible, for submission to authority is the very foundational principle of the Bible and if we don’t get it right we are hell bound and taking others with us. I’m sad to read that this post is substantially a common stance in the church today – that we cannot know the truth – so let’s all be confused with our own truth, just like Babel and not of same tongue or on same page…. reduced to confusion.
Ken · 478 weeks ago
As for my words that Jesus was wrong for pleading with the Father I will rephrase those. Wrong does not mean sinful, but the analogy is quite clear. Here Jesus knew the plan of the Father yet still at the last minute he pleads with Him to remove the sufferings of the cross. He was not wrong in asking, and neither is a wife for speaking with words to a husband to plead her case. He is our example and to think that a wife is never to speak up to her husband is a black and white absurdity. How can one so over-emphasize one verse over so many other verses in the Bible that hold this verse in a correct tension so as to arrive at God's will for our lives?
Both sides of this issue are dead wrong. Your side wanting no words and a silent wife and the other side who wants to throw out the verse because of the few exceptions that the other truths allow her. The heart that truly wants to please Jesus will see "win him without a word" or "the Word" as an ideal that must be followed by a godly wife for the proven God given results it delivers in winning her man. But this principle is not a hard fast rule never to be broken with no exception. Let's accept it as the model for a Christian wife, but let's also allow Believers to see true love for a husband that goes beyond this admonishment and seeks her husband's best at all times, even times she must use words to try to protect him, or save him from disaster, or just have a better marriage. The husband can then say to a wife "no more words on the matter" or "I am not interested." You are off base on truth to see this as so cardinal that it trumps the truth of a wife's commitment to seek her husband's best, not just to singularly live by rote admonishments of the scriptures, one at a time."
I also don't appreciate godly men and women when they are absurd in their propositions and arguments. You know full well the "balance" I am speaking about and it is not balancing truth with a world view, or Satan's view. I state what I am balancing truth against in my opening sentences, yet you failed to see it multiple times:
"All truth must stay in balance, and once one truth is emphasized disproportionately against another, one falls off the horse of truth and into something God does not intend for us to believe or live."
I must admonish against Pharisaical thinking that leaves a man's animal in the ditch because it is the Sabbath, or walks by the injured unclean Gentile because I have been cleansed at the temple today. Is this not exactly what Jesus condemned most vehemently? Those who kept every part of the written law, yet failed in the greatest of commands to allow love to be the highest of God's ideals. No one is trying to throw out submission here or "win him without a word," but to the point of the post, thees two things cannot fit into the nice little black and white box you wish them to fit into.
Ken · 478 weeks ago
The balance I am asking for is exactly what you seek. To believe all of God's Word, yet one must hold truth within the tension of the rest of truth within God's Word. Indeed God's Word is the box into which truth must be tempered or balanced to see and understand its nuances clearly. It is for this reason that God looks at the heart and motives in judging sin, not simply the letter of the law.
Two men show up at the door looking for your daughter who has stolen $1,000 from their drug dealing outfit. You know they mean to harm her. "Is your daughter home?"
"Oh yes, let me go get her for you because I will never tell a lie as God commands against it!"
Is this your response? Or do you do the best lying and deceiving you possibly can because you know you will violate many other truths of God's Word if you simply hand your daughter over to these thugs. You do not expect to stand before God some day and give an account for the "thou shalt not lie" in this situation because you know that the truth of love and protection for our family is the ruling truth in this context.
Can we be so blinded to all of God's other commands to want to make "without a word" the end all and be all of submission? Can we not see that even as Christ pleased with words to His heavenly Father, that a wife may too plead with words to her spouse.
You have fallen off the horse of truth if you see "without a word" as the preeminent principle of submission, then wiling to sacrifice many of God's others ideals to hold fast to it with no exceptions. I invite you and others who are so black and white on this truth to challenge yourself to see that we all must seek not just God's one verse Word on a matter, but God's will on the matter as shown by the whole Word of God, and in the example of the Word Christ Jesus.
Is a wife to say nothing when she sees the impending disaster coming to her husband because she was taught "win him without a word?" Please rethink your position and leave room for all of God's truths to be held in a marvelous tension that manifests itself in the Truth of Christ Jesus.