There are many people writing and talking about boundaries they set for their spouses, friends, and relatives. This, for some reason, never seemed right to me. I think it is fine to set boundaries for yourself; boundaries for purity, for protection, etc. We are also to train and teach our children by setting boundaries for them; teaching them right from wrong.
Setting boundaries for anyone but yourself or your children seems wrong to me since we can't control anybody else's behavior. It seems like it is another way of saying you are trying to control someone else. Then comes in the problem of NEVER becoming a "doormat," since doormat is a dirty word today.
You see, the problem I have with the word boundary and doormat is that neither of these words are in the Bible. Yes, Jesus went away from the crowds at times for prayer and to be alone, but is that a boundary? It may be a boundary for Him, but not for others and He ALWAYS allowed interruptions to His "boundaries." He was mocked, beaten, and crucified on a cross. Was he not being a doormat for the world? Aren't we called to be like Him?
What about being called to be a "living sacrifice?" What about denying ourselves and giving ourselves to others? What about generosity and a servant being called the greatest of all? All these just don't seem to fit in with the so called "boundaries" people are setting up for others in their lives or the fear of being a doormat. However, we are never called to participate in sin for we must obey God rather than man, and if there is any type of abuse, call the authorities and see the link below.*
Shouldn't we be willing to be inconvenienced for others? Shouldn't we think of these times as golden opportunities to serve others? When we sacrifice our desires and wants for others, aren't we sacrificing our time and energy for Christ? When we give a child a cup of water, aren't we told we are giving Christ a cup of water?
Setting boundaries for others seems like psycho babble to me and not biblical at all. All this stuff about not being a doormat seems the same. If we insist on setting boundaries for others and not being a doormat, we will ALWAYS be unhappy when we are inconvenienced, interrupted, or asked to do things we don't feel like doing.
I have just found in my own life, that the more I give myself and my desires away and serve others, the better my life becomes. When I don't need things to go my way and get things my way, the more joy I have. We are called to give our lives away and boundaries and not being a doormat just don't seem to fit into the biblical definition of being a godly servant for Christ.
But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Matthew 23:11
*This does NOT apply to those who are in destructive marriages and their spouses have destructive habits that NEED boundaries. Please read this post if you are in a destructive marriage! You absolutely need to set boundaries and consequences to destructive behavior, maybe even separating for a time.
*This does NOT apply to those who are in destructive marriages and their spouses have destructive habits that NEED boundaries. Please read this post if you are in a destructive marriage! You absolutely need to set boundaries and consequences to destructive behavior, maybe even separating for a time.
Logging you in...
MBB · 557 weeks ago
Kim · 557 weeks ago
I had to resign from a client because of the language spoken; I had to listen for hours to foul language, intermixed with statements of Jesus and God. If this was my husband, I would set boundaries on his language, such as he is not to talk like that in the house, around children and guest, at the mall, etc.
Good boundaries should raise the standard of behavior for the one its set for while giving a safe zone to those it is to protect, creating a middle ground to build positive behavior, attitude, feelings for both. Unfortunately, just like everything else, someone will use it for their own manipulative self and have a cheerleading section to boot.
You've seem not understand boundaries, so I suggest reading Boundaries by Henry Cloud and John Townsend.
sheworksretail 36p · 557 weeks ago
The only thing I can think of is that I have a "no fast food" rule in my house. I don't care if other people consume it while they're out, but it doesn't come into my house.
Gently Led · 557 weeks ago
First, the issue of establishing boundaries for others -- which isn't what "setting boundaries" is about, boundaries are about protecting yourself/your family from other people whose behavior you cannot control. One can only set boundaries for one's self and children. (In the above example, you cannot stop your husband from using foul language, but you might decide to leave the room when he begins to swear, not to control him but because it is not helpful for you to be around that language.) I think we agree on this.
However, I don't see that serving others ever means that we are "a doormat." Someone who serves with the love God gives them is never a doormat but freely gives that love for others' good and is blessed by it too (even when it's hard). When people have trouble setting boundaries, or find themselves a doormat, it is because they are not serving others out of love; rather, they are acting out of fear, such as fear of losing someone's love or attention.
Failing to set boundaries or being a doormat for others comes out of fear of man, not fear of God. This is unbiblical. Abused people often stay in abusive relationships out of "love" that is really fear. I know this isn't where you are coming from at all! I would recommend you read the Boundaries book too before dismissing the ideas of boundaries all together.
I am reading your post in context of having had so many people tell me to love and serve my unbelieving father and stepmother. I had to untangle my motives and separate what was really loving vs. what I was doing out of fear of offending/alienating them. I don't have much contact with my stepmother anymore, and that is for the good of my family and me.
Finally, I do think the idea of boundaries with one's own children can be helpful. My kids ALWAYS want me. But I cannot give them me nonstop and still get filled up by the Lord. I know you had quiet time in your family, too. I would call that a boundary, one that enables me to serve them more joyfully and self-sacrificially the rest of the time.
Linda Hamilton · 557 weeks ago
Cynthia · 557 weeks ago
I think that you are right about the fact that sometimes, there is a tension between drawing a boundary to protect ourselves, vs. being open and of service to others.
Of course, some of the discussion should always come back to what best serves and honors God.
Ultimately, we serve God and not man, although there are specific directions on when we are required to serve God by being a vessel for his blessings and serving others (providing for the needy, healing the sick, loving our neighbors, etc.). Our faith can give us the energy to be selfless, to reach out to those who have been hurt so badly that they are hard to reach, to have more patience, to have the extra energy in the face of needs that seem to never end.
Some basic self-care is required in order for us to have the strength to continue to serve God. This can be a struggle for some. I know that my husband is so devoted that this was a problem for him - he felt horrible when a medical problem suddenly forced him to cancel patients, and ultimately he lost vision in one eye because he couldn't recover properly. He now realizes that if he doesn't care for his health, he won't be any good to anyone.
Some people have personalities that naturally bully or push. If they could, they would consume all of our time and resources, at the expense of others who also require us. We must serve the quiet and meek, not just the loud and powerful. My husband often has to deal with people who demand urgent appointments for issues that are fairly minor. If he accommodated all of them, he wouldn't have time to deal with the genuine life-and-death emergencies or to give his other patients the full attention that they need, and he also wouldn't have time to spend with our kids.
We can and should draw boundaries in our homes, around unacceptable behavior and speech. I welcome everyone to my table. I love the fact that we have lively discussions. I do, however, draw the line at anything blatantly offensive, and did once have to tell a guest that racist "jokes" had no place in our home. [My husband felt the same way, and backed me up.) I can't control what this person does anywhere else, but I can keep my home as a sanctuary.
Finally, there are times when enabling doesn't actually help anyone - when it depletes us of our strength to do what we need to do, and when it also reinforces problems that the other person has. We are commanded not to place a stumbling block before the blind. No, we can't cure someone else's addiction, but we can make sure that we don't contribute to the problem. We can refuse to provide booze to an alcoholic, we can refuse to give a drug addict money to buy more drugs, we can refuse to bring some bedridden with obesity huge quantities of junk food. Similarly, if someone has an abusive personality, we can stop being a target and reinforcing it. We can leave the room or hang up the phone if someone is swearing at us or threatening us. We can keep our children away from people and situations that are not safe or appropriate for them.
Roxy · 557 weeks ago
I have been in a dangerous situation more than once dealing with people. Safety for oneself and those you are called to protect. As you said Lori we cannot control anyone! Why waste my time trying. Hot topic sister! Will check back to see how many more comments come in!
Roxy
helen · 557 weeks ago
If you don't read the post carefully or indeed, try and bring in other issues that Lori is NOT addressing you won't get the benefit of what Lori is trying to teach here.
sigh..................
Blessings
Helen UK
Ken · 557 weeks ago
I will give you the tale of two stories. A wife's parents, especially the Dad, was quite pushy and difficult and would show up at any hour to push for what he wanted. He could be quite obnoxious. One sister and her husband put her foot down, laid down the rules and had pretty good success at keeping the father away and at bay. If he did not stay outside the boundaries he got a rude reception at the door and told to go away. This happened maybe twice a year, but when it did it got the couple so upset they no longer want to do much of anything with Dad and Mom, unless it was Christmas morning with the whole family.
The other sister felt the same way about Dad. She would have loved to have set boundaries, but her husband was one who was taught to give his life away, and accept some abuse of personal space. So the door was always kept open, and yes, there was some frustration saying "no" to his pushy ways, but overall the Dad and Mom were loved. Almost every holiday or party, Mon and Dad were invited with no boundaries set. Over 25 years this happened and Dad became more mellow with age, and much more caring. Still obnoxious at times, but always welcome.
One day with tears in his eyes he confessed how difficult it was to be rejected by the other sister and how much he appreciated being accepted by the other family. Mom and dad expressed how "at home" they were with this family, and how loved they felt by all family children. This really was their only home and children and the rest of the family was behind boundaries. These boundaries carry emotional attachments to them that are impossible to erase.
Things have gotten better between the Dad and the other sister, but the sister who lived without boundaries and her family were the big winners. All her children love their grandpa, warts and all, and the children for the other sister maintain the boundaries and have a arm's length relationship with him. Some may say they have no relationship with him.
Now you tell me which was right and which was wrong? On the surface such boundaries sound so sensible. But they are not necessarily God's ways. If someone can tell me that they have first "laid down their life" for their family member, then they still need boundaries for some reason, then I will not argue with them. They need to take that up with their God and their Bible and see if they are right or wrong. But the idea that somehow the Bible teaches these boundaries is far from the truth. The idea of boundaries is pieced together with proof texts to come up with something the whole of scripture does not support. If boundaries was so important to the life of a Christian, why didn't Paul, Peter or John devote one real passage to the concept?
The best one can say about setting boundaries on a family member is that they have prayerfully sought God's wisdom on the subject through prayer, and have looked at the passages concerning self-sacrifice for others and allowing the sacrificial life of Jesus to flow in and through them, and finally have concluded that God wants them to set a boundary. If your boundary is set without consulting the Lord Jesus it is most likely done out of selfish motivation and not love or sacrifice. Why, because the Bible does not teach boundaries. Boundaries is taught by modern psychology of self preservation placing one's self first above others. Biblical Christianity is about pouring out one's life for others. You tell me. In how many ways each day do we seek self and self preservation and how many times a day do we seek love, sacrifice and acceptance of others?
Instead of boundaries on family, may I suggest this. Go to your family members who you have set boundaries on and ask for forgiveness for your self preservation. Explain why you thought that was necessary, but that now you you can see, (if you can see) that the boundaries were all about you, and not about you shining Jesus to them. Tell them that you love them enough to let them inside your boundaries, but then smile and say you hope they will not be showing up at midnight or too many times unexpected, but if they do, you will love them as Christ loves you.
Which sister do you want to be? Again, I am not telling you what to do except pray about it and study all the myriad of passages about self-sacrifice and laying down your life that the Bible has for us all. If life is about me and what I can get out of it... then so be it. But if it is about Jesus, if I am to err, I must err on the side of sacrifice over self-preservation. What else does it mean to "be like Him" who gave His life away for others first, foremost and still patiently waits on us us unruly children who are always breaking His boundaries.
hiswife522 43p · 557 weeks ago
I've had teachers try to tell me that Jesus was a master of setting boundaries for himself. He left crowds so as not to overtire himself. Um? I want to know what Bible these people are reading. Yes, he did leave crowds but it was nothing for self serving purposes. He subjected himself to being beaten and crucified! For goodness sake....why would he be so protective of being tired if he was willing to endure the most grueling death a person could endure!!!!
Yes, he left crowds. But it wasn't for his own sake. He left for one of four reasons - 1) his ministry in that crowd was done 2) he did ministry elsewhere 3) he went by himself to pray and 4) they were trying to kill him, but the time had not yet come (but don't for a moment think it was because he selfishly wanted to save his own life, no it was because prophesy said he would be raised upon a cross, not that his death would be by stoning).
So unless we are drawing these "boundaries" in order for us to go do ministry elsewhere, go by ourselves and pray (perhaps even so passionately that we bleed as Jesus did in the Garden of Gethsemane) or are willing to lay down our own life for someone else, we really really shouldn't be preaching this message that Jesus set boundaries.
This is modern mumble jumble that is much better suited for the garbage can than the church. sorry....I'm a bit passionate about this one. Every single drop of it's teachings point back to "me me me" and *nothing* to Jesus.
Jennifer Dunn · 557 weeks ago
AMY · 557 weeks ago
Lady Virtue · 557 weeks ago
One of the most amazing things about God, to me, is that even though He knew that man would sin against Him, He created us anyway. Jesus still loves us, and did everything He could to prove it when He died on the cross for our sins. I'm glad God didn't take the attitude of, "I know they're just going to turn on me and sin against me, so I'm going to wipe them out or not even create them in the first place."
Love is worth it. :-)
amanhiswife 27p · 557 weeks ago
Kim · 557 weeks ago
Kim · 557 weeks ago
The one thing a home should be is peaceful. When it is not, it is time to find the source and break its legs (metaphorically). Ever the analyzer, I found this and that with myself, and worked to reverse it (this website was one way, thank you). When it is time to assist the spouse (note assist, meaning help, meaning with noses to the grindstone), identify the problem, formulate the response, tackle, analyze, repeat. How is this control? How is this being a doormat? How is this not good? How am I going to go to Hell for this? I think its a good thing to bring up real examples because this is when it gets murky.
For your story, Ken, you must remember that the man who took his father's wife was thrown out of church for his own good in 1 Corinthians, and forgiven when he turn away from sin in 2 Corinthians. If a grandfather is behaving this way, a boundary must be set: why (abuse), what to be done (leave), what needs to happen (his realization of wrong behavior), result for progress (open our home).
Daniel · 471 weeks ago
What is even more disconcerting is how proponents of boundaries attribute this same relationship need to God himself – “Like God, our most central need is to be connected. However, the God of the Bible has no needs and is completely satisfied with himself. In fact, his greatest pleasure is himself and his inexhaustible glory. For God to have greater pleasure in anyone or thing besides himself would be idolatry, because it would exalt the creature over the Creator. The reason that he loves man is for his own pleasure and glory, not because he is worthy or is a needy God who needs relationships with human beings to be complete.
A huge error in boundaries is the unbiblical view of sin and its source. They claim, “. . . many psychological symptoms such as depression, anxiety disorders, addictions, impulse disorders, guilt problems, shame issues, panic disorders, and marital and relational struggles, find their root in conflicts with boundaries.” Unfortunately, this list is simply a catalogue of sinful behaviors and attitudes renamed and redefined with psychological terms. According to Scripture, the source of these ungodly attitudes and behaviors is the human heart. As previously stated, God has only one plan for dealing with the human heart, namely the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Authors Cloud and Townsend state the goal of the Boundaries is to aid readers in using biblical boundaries so that they can achieve the relationships that God intends for his children. However, it is not God’s intention that his children live by an unbiblical concept called boundaries. According to Scripture, specifically Gal. 5:16 and 5:25, all Christians are to live by the Spirit. This is also the main point of Rom. 8. The fruit of the Spirit as described in Gal. 5:22-23: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control are precisely what is needed for healthy and harmonious relationships, not boundaries.
In closing, this erroneous belief that Boundaries are scriptural is simply another example of how the atheistic psychological teaching of Freud, Maslow, Jung etc, has infiltrated the contemporary church. For almost two thousand years, the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, and the Scriptures have been sufficient to convert the souls of men, and empower them to live godly lives. However, according to proponents of Boundaries, the Word of God is no longer sufficient, now we need boundaries. Boundaries are not only unbiblical, but also lead people away from the all-sufficient truth of God’s Word. In former days, the church used to call this heresy. We had better return to those days before it is too late.