Friday, October 17, 2014

Is Lori Too Black and White? {By Ken}


Many of the readers of Lori’s blog will come to the conclusion that she is pretty “Black and White” with what she teaches from the Bible. The Bible is very much a black and white book, except of course for some words in the middle in red letters. Truth remains truth whether or not I, or even the majority lives up to it. God's Kingdom is not a democracy with God being so understanding that His mind on a matter changes depending on each individual’s particular circumstances or needs. No, the truths about wifely submission and that Christian wives are to be keepers at home is quite clear, but are they absolutes?

It is always an interesting argument in a friendly Christian discussion concerning God’s laws, and truths to see some “black and whiter’s” hold so tightly by the truth “thou shalt not lie,” that they are theoretically willing to never lie to protect their family. For them, God’s truth is so absolute that if evil soldiers break down the door and ask them where are the women in the home, that to be silent is OK, but to lie and say my wife and daughter are not here, that is a sin. Perhaps a sin worth perpetuating, but nevertheless a sin? I don’t think so, and neither do I see in exceptional situations a wife’s unsubmissiveness, or working outside the home, as being sinful.  But when the exceptions become the the rule, too many are being "disobedient to the Word."

No, Lori does not spend a lot of time on the exceptions, precisely because the Good Book she is teaching from has few exceptions in it. God intended in a few words to give us His universal mind on all we need for life and godliness. This includes marriage and family life. Those who do not see the universal truth of wifely submission and keepers at home in their Bibles are generally unwilling to do so. They want to relativize something that God has clearly and definitively said in His Word, and it becomes inescapable when such things are repeated multiple times, by multiple apostles.

“Wives submit to your husbands in EVERYTHING!”  
This cannot always be true, can it? Yes, the principle is always true, but its application must be judged in relationship to God's other truths and admonitions. Some truths are foundation and the bedrock of our faith such as when Jesus says, “No man can come the Father except though me.” And again, the apostle Paul says, “For by grace you are saved, through faith, … it is a gift of God, lest any man should boast.” These theological truths cannot be relativized because there is no higher truth that may trump them. 

But the Bible also gives truth by way of God's admonitions which tell us His universal mind on matters of life and godliness. These admonitions may be set aside for a time for a higher truth, a greater love, or as some may say "a greater good."

That is correct. If you are playing the game of Spades, or Rook, you understand the concept that when a player before you plays a card, you too must play a similarly suited card if you have one in your hand. But if you do not have a spade, you may, by rule, trump the spade with a heart and win the hand, assuming that no one has a higher trump in the hand then yours. 

This same principle works when applying God’s admonitions in the life of mature Christians. We should not be those who are children “tossed too and fro by every wind of doctrine,” nor be immature in our understanding of God's Word. Instead  we must be solidly planted on the bedrock of truths that God has given us. We then build upon those bedrocks a life of God's admonitions as we try to "best please"the One we call our Lord. Lordship trumps all once we enter the family of God. We are to look clearly into God’s Word and give special preference to any truth or admonition that God repeats more than once, and especially if it is 6-8 times, and realize that God must really want me to do this. Unless there is some higher or greater truth that clearly should be followed to please the Lord.

Rare exceptions exist when it comes to wifely submission, and Lori states the two biggest ones regularly: 1)If a husband is in any way physically abusive or seemingly a threat to a wife’s safety, or safety of the children; or 2) If a wife is asked to sin, or participate in, aid or abet sin. If we cannot see these two truths as modifiers on the truth, “wives submit to your husbands,” we end up violating a higher, more important truth for a lesser truth. But when “everyone begins to do what they think is right in their own eyes,” clearly the wheels have come off the chariot of truth and one’s feelings and circumstances becomes the trump cards, not God’s higher truths and ideals.

God wants all of our being: our mind, heart, body, soul, attitudes and behavior. He came and made you and me brand new fully expecting that we would walk in newness of life, not settling for a “get out of hell free card.” If we do not as yet know that Jesus demands Lordship, and lordship demands everything from us then we have not read the red words in the Bible, let alone the rest of it. Christianity and Lordship are inextricably linked. When it comes to fully understanding the mind of the Lord on any particular matter, the Lordship of Christ trumps all.

So now let’s back up and tackle the issue again of absolute truth when it comes to wifely submission. I will suggest, at the risk of being misunderstood, that there are indeed times that a wife  should not be in submission to her husband if her love for him finds a greater truth that precludes her obedience. And especially if she finds herself with a man who is masquerading as her husband because drugs, alcohol or mental illness has taken the real man she married away from her. She is still to seek his best interests and not her own, yet how she does this may mean saying "no."

 Is a submissive wife to be constantly and consistently silent and watch such a husband fall further into sin and despair, or is she to be his help meet in these matters and come along side of him to help him in his time of need? I believe that we would have a pretty unreasonable faith if a wife is to sit by and do nothing when she sees ways she can lovingly help her husband. True love trumps submission, but a wife must be sure the motive is indeed true love.

If your husband is high on prescription pain killers, yet he is getting into his car to drive to work and operate on a patient, do you hide the keys? And after you have hidden the keys and he tells you with slurred words that “I am OK, now give me my keys,” does a wife submissively give them to him?

Paul says, “submit to your husband in EVERYTHING!” so of course you give him the keys and God will either protect him or you will joyfully visit him in prison after your house is foreclosed upon. NO WAY! Of course you don’t give him the keys, although you may drive him to work if he insists, and go with him to talk to a fellow doctor and friend who can help in this situation. One might call this “the principle of the greater good,” and yet I don’t believe God wants wives everywhere to begin to pick and choose when is, or is not “the greater good,” EXCEPT in exceptional situations. 

One of the main reasons why most Christian marriages do not function effectively is precisely because the wife often strongly believes that she knows best, so the Christian husband is stuck either battling his wife’s will or sensibilities, while she believes she only wants the “the greater good.”  God expects us to first know His mind and will from His Word on these important subjects of life and godliness. Then we must check in with Him regularly to walk in His Spirit and in His ways.   Only in rare and extreme circumstances should a godly wife be trumping her husband’s judgment and desires with her own way of doing things. 

“So what if I don’t submit? What if it is a simple issue of my husband saying he doesn’t want me spending $25 a week on Starbucks and I sneak the money out of the budget and drink one latte a day anyway? How could God fault me for that, when we have plenty of money, and what’s the harm in what he doesn’t know? OK, I will admit that maybe the real issue he has is that I have been spending $200 in ATM cash on my own 'needs' each week and he got a bit upset with me when he found out. But we have plenty, you know.”

Most of you will readily see that there is no greater truth that will trump being obedient to your husband’s desires when it comes to a latte, or spending too much on yourself. The more difficult issues to answer are, “Where do we go to church? Do we send the kids to private Christian school? Do I take Julie to the doctor for her fever? Do I let the baby cry through the night? What if my husband wants sex five times a week, or more!?!”

I suggest that there is very little, if anything in the Bible, that will trump by way of a greater truth any of these types of decisions more so than “be in submission in everything.” I will also suggest that when a wife is not submissive in buying a coffee latte or spending some extra cash, if the family truly has the means, that her unsubmissiveness is not pleasing to God, but He is not keeping track to hold it against her some day. What He will hold against a wife someday is if her heart’s desire and general behavior is not set on His clear truth of  joyful wifely submission to create a godly marriage. Wifely submission should not be seen as an endless list of do's and don'ts set up by God and husband, but instead a willing heart to follow, even if at times one is not perfect in obedience.

No godly husband is keeping track of how many times his wife was unsubmissive in the little things, unless he for a short time is trying to prove the point.  I want my wife to live in an attitude of submission, but if she feels strongly about something, and goes against my desires, I usually stay silent, not wanting to be petty. Or I may nicely call her on it, then drop the subject. I am certain that if that is the way a godly husband responds to an unsubmissive wife in the little things, I cannot see God caring about your secret latte. But, God certainly cares very much for your overall heart attitude towards allowing your husband to be your leader. 

God desires that you please your husband without being robotic, or a Stepford wife. He wants a wife to live in the same relationship with her husband as she is to be with her Lord and Savior. That is submissive and trying to please Him in everything. If a higher truth is clearly in play, confirm the higher truth with fellow believers, an older godly women, elder or pastor. Don’t start going Rambo on your husband because you know better, or “God told me so.” No, God told you what he wants from a godly wife and it is her role to live this out while still living a reasonable faith. Christianity is the most reasonable of all faiths, and it makes perfect sense in all areas of life and godliness. Submission is not subservience, nor a lesser class of person. God forbid we see the submission of Jesus to the Father as somehow making him unequal, or not as much value in His very nature as God. 

Let's not make submission to a husband something that is unreasonable and yet, remember, that for the Christian, our happiness or perceived needs are not trump cards. What God wants is our spiritual growth as an image bearer of Christ, and the advancement of the Kingdom. These  things are what is most important to God for our lives and why He gave us  the truth of His many admonitions. 


For husbands, there are no trump cards that will please the Lord more so than "Husbands love you wife as Christ loves the church." No ifs, ands or buts about it for those who choose to follow the LORD Jesus with their lives. Love always seeks the best interest of another, over our own self interests, in good times and in bad. Unsubmissive, difficult, sick, or no matter what, we married her, and God is entrusting us to love her and help grow her up into Christ Jesus, without using the submission card for our own self-interests.


So then, you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 
Matthew 7:20-21

Comments (15)

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"Submit to one another" out of reverence for Christ."
1 reply · active 545 weeks ago
Yes Bill,

Submit to one another is a universal truth and admonition for all within the church. But it is the perfect example of understanding this truth within the context of higher truths, or more specific admonitions. We have dealt with the fallacy of "mutual submission" in marriage that is perpetuated by far too many well meaning pastors. See this post on the subject of Mutual Submission:
http://lorialexander.blogspot.com/2013/02/mutual-...

Imagine if the Secretary of Defense walked into a room filled with all the branches of the service and all levels from Admirals and Generals all the way down to Cadets. In his open remarks he says, "The military of the United States cannot survive and thrive without two main qualities of mutual submission and cooperation. If we do not know how to relate to one another, and we are unwilling to put our own interests secondary to getting the mission accomplished, how can we expect to be successful? Mutual submission and cooperation are vital to the success of any organization, let alone one that is entrusted with the safety of such a great country."

Then he went on and said, "Sergeants submit to your Lieutenants, Lieutenants submit to your Majors, Majors submit to your Generals, just Generals must submit to their High Command. Is this not exactly what Paul is telling us in Ephesians 5:

"submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ." (5:21)
"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord." (5:22)
"Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands." (5:24)
"Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right." (6:1)
"Bondservants,(Employees) obey your earthly masters." (6:5)

"Obey your leaders (Church Elders) and submit to them." (Heb 13:17)
"younger men submit to your elders." (1 Peter 5:5)

Submitting to one another is a key and important part of Christian living within the church, and we should know to whom we are to submit to. We don't submit to just anyone, or our children are staying up until midnight and working up with stomach aches from too much ice cream the night before. A wife does not submit to a husband other than her own, and certainly Christ is not submitting to His church in any way.

How do you reconcile that a wife's submission to her husband is to "as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands?"

The church's submission is far from mutual with Christ. It is wrong to understand the "submit to one another" verse as anything more than relating to those within the church with whom we do not have in authority over us. Just as the military has many who are in submission to each other, so too it has many with a special leadership position to whom others are to willfully submit.
This is very well written. Thank you; it clarifies a lot. I think it helps to think of the more excellent way: the law of Love above all other "laws", when it comes to obedience to God. It would not be a response of Love (God) to get into a vehicle driven by a drunken man, with children in the car, all the while thinking, "Well, God SAID that I must obey my husband in ALL things!" This is legalism, in my humble opinion, and something I have been guilty of. Not only is it legalism, but it idolatry...putting fear and intimidation of what another human being will say to me or think of me (for loving him by refusing to partake in his sin when he's out of his mind) above what God says of me and what God calls me to do for my family! That's a sobering thought!

There's a clear but fine line to be walked: MOST married women will not have to try and discern between good and evil "requests" or actions from their husbands, but for those of us who are living in the bizarre place of trying to please God by submitting to husbands who are often entangled in besetting sin (and serious, dangerous ones), we must know how to rightly divide the Word of God. It is not enough to just say, "Well, we are to submit to him in all things", because there may be times when to submit to him is to deny God's Lordship.

For the vast majority of women, this will be a non-issue: just obey your husband in all things. For those of us with husbands who are not responding at all to our cultivating quiet and gentle spirits and submitting to them (because they are in outright rebellion to God), there may be the rare occasion that requires a kind of "civil disobedience" unto the husband in order to choose the more excellent way (Love.)

Thank you for helping me process this and flesh it out.
1 reply · active 545 weeks ago
You got it anonymous!

We wanted a record on the blog to try and explain that although we believe in all of God's truths and admonitions, we do see some truths qualifying others, and we see that exceptions do exist, but in rare cases. Our detractors what to believe that there are more exceptions than we want to see of wives being abused, or husbands who are emotionally or mentally ill. We must acknowledge that the application of truth and admonitions cannot always be black and white, but the truth and admonition is black and white and must be taught as God's ideals, even if they seemingly cannot be universally applied at times.

If they cannot be applied it should be very infrequent, and with the goal of getting the relationship back in order where it can be once again applied. Instead of assuming that if it can't be applied 100% of the time it must be invalid. No, God's truths remain 100% valid if they cannot be adequately applied because of sin.
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Lady Virtue · 545 weeks ago

This is a great post. It's sad that so many people try to normalize exceptions and insist that their circumstances give them a loophole to be disobedient to the Lord. I know it's often easier said than done, but trust the Lord--always.
1 reply · active 545 weeks ago
Yes, but we who are mature in the faith should not be afraid of exceptions. The one who wants to please God will do so, and the one who does not, will find an excuse. We cannot be concerned about anything more than caring about others and delivering God's Word as clearly as we know how, with the hope that the Spirit will uncover some blindness with His Word.
And on a lighter note...

Your "greater good" sentence reminded me of one of my husband's favorite scenes from The Incredibles:
http://youtu.be/x2qRDMHbXaM
"One of the main reasons why most Christian marriages do not function effectively is precisely because the wife often strongly believes that she knows best...."

Hmmmm. A "main" reason? Could a component tot his be that quite often among younger marrieds, the woman has matured faster? This would be an interesting thought to evaluate...the varying levels of maturity between a couple. Through her submission, is she leading him to growing in maturity a little more quickly then if she was not in his life?
3 replies · active 545 weeks ago
It is an interesting thought Ksdee, and one I have considered. I am not convinced that two 22 year olds getting married that one is more mature than the other but they often have two different sets of immaturity. Young men will be outwardly more immature, but young women are far more immature with their emotions and bad thinking; especially bad thinking about the relationship. Young men tend to take life as it happens, and young women are far too introspective. Both tend to work towards the middle as they mature.

If the qualifying admonitions is to win your disobedient husband without a word, that puts a special requirement on a young married wife as to how she will be trying to help her husband grow up... does it not? She is to win him by modeling for him her extra maturity, and godly behavior. She can't go off and consider herself more mature and start making demands she has a prescription for solving the issues.
I think that may be where the disconnect can occur - a young wife who is trying to set the example of growing toward maturity and the young husband is not there yet - may be where young wives becomes impatient, frustrated, etc. and the respect begins to waiver. It is a delicate balance as well as a dangerous time. While I don't want to lump all together, as a whole, it seems that younger men today are taking much longer to find a sense of direction in their lives and to step up into true manhood. Why?, lack of examples to model their behavior after?...
We certainly hear about such young men, but the ones we know personally around our area and church are pretty mature for their age. Almost all went to college and got a degree, want to marry or are married, and desire to be good fathers and husbands. So we know what you are talking about exists, but we must be in a bubble knowing so few of such immature young men that we are associated with in three major cities.

I think overall, young men who love Jesus mature pretty quickly. They may still hold onto wanting to play sports, and hang out with friends, golf, but 90% are hard workers and wanting to make a difference with their lives and family.

Certainly if these young men are surrounded with similar godly young men they generally have role models in their fathers, or are pushed to greater maturity by their godly friends. This is why it is so important to make sure your children are in a great church with godly kids, or going to a Christian College. Immaturity in a young man is greatly frowned upon in the churches and circles I frequent.

I had never thought of it before this discussion, but now that you bring it up, I am thrilled with the maturity levels of the 20-30 year old men I know personally, and my sons. The one son we thought might not mature as quickly got married at 23 and has a great job, a great marriage and two gorgeous kids at 29. Perhaps the right Christian college and right Christian friends is the key, after of course having good role models.
What kind of loving parent figure never gives you freedom and instead expects to be consulted on all matters? When one adult micromanages another adult's life like this and threatens punishment if the other doesn't obey, we call this abuse. Why then is God's expectation that he have the right to micromanage our lives seen as being loving instead of abusive?
1 reply · active 545 weeks ago
I am not sure what you are referring to DaniGayle, unless it is telling a wife she is not to buy a latte a day? There is no micromanaging spoken of in this post, not is it an expected outcome in a one flesh marriage that is trying to please God. Is it abuse to micromanage a wife? OK,if so, abuse with a small "a" as we must leave room for personalities. Some husbands are bean counters, and their wife knew they like everything on a chart and accounted for before they got married. Some wives lack discipline and crave constant accountability. But generally speaking, a husband led marriage should be far from micromanaging.

If a wife has a consistent problem of overspending, or drinks a latte a day, it is fully within a husband's prerogative as the leader of the marriage to call her on it. He should do much like a wife might and simply make his request and drop the subject. If she goes against his will he can bring it up again and drop it. Finally if she willfully chooses to go against his requests he has little recourse but to keep leading and loving "as Christ loves the Church." Will that include some form of discipline? Perhaps, but only if he feels it will be helpful, and not harmful to the marriage and helping to grow up his wife. Telling her that she spent her new dishwasher money on six months of cafe latte's may or may not help her see that she is wasting the family's money, but in the end it is all about harmony and becoming one flesh together, not about either spouse out to get their own selfish way. She does what she wants, and then gets to speak to the Lord about it as he must wait patiently to allow the Lord to work on her heart. Submission to husband's leadership is a willful and voluntary thing, but this does not then mean regularly picking and choosing what I will and will not submit to. That is far from the ideal, "submit to your husbands in everything."

AND that passage certainly was not intended to give license to husbands to micromanage their wives. Wives are indeed adults, equals and to be esteemed "more highly than oneself." They are to be treated with respect and even more, with love.

As much as I love and respect my staff members, I still direct them and tell them what I expect from them. I observe and monitor them to insure that what I have asked is being accomplished, and I withhold bonuses or fire those who do not measure up. Is this micromanaging or simply managing? If I say I want no team member to drink more than three company Krup coffees a day, and no more than two company protein bars, am I being petty, or reasonable? It is all managing, not micro managing.
It seems to me that all the directions given to a wife throughout the new testament are given by Paul an unmarried man who thought celibacy was the best way to go. His directive to older women in Titus was not that unusual for the times he lived in. If you could, would you please show us where in the bible we can find Jesus saying these things? We have been discussing this very subject in Bible class. Thank you.
1 reply · active 545 weeks ago
Jesus ISN'T divorced from the rest of the Bible. Jesus is a member of the Godhead. He was living inside of Paul when Paul wrote the NT. I hear this argument about homosexuality, since Jesus never spoke against it, but He was not absent when a firestorm rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah in condemnation for their homosexuality. All of Scripture is the inspired Word of God and Jesus is part of God. He used Paul to write His words. All of Paul's words are Jesus' and God's Words since they are part of the Trinity.

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