A man posted a comment on a blog explaining that men marry just for sex. I asked Ken what he thought and he said, "No way! There are many reasons why men marry and sex is just one important reason." Then Ken decided to write the following post ~
Saying that "men marry just for sex"
is analogous to saying "men buy homes just to sleep in them."
Sure, one of the most important reasons why we buy a home is so we can have a roof over our head and a comfortable place to sleep. But to own a home, and to live within it, has far more meaning to a man than just a good night's sleep.
Don't misunderstand that a significant part of marriage for man is his privilege, joy, pleasure and right to sleep with his woman. To a man, sex is a glorious thing which conjures up strong emotional attachments. Many a man has given his life for his bride, or would give his life in an instant, because of the hormonal bonds that are created during those blissful moments where he felt that he and his bride were truly one.
Few men would desire to enter into a marriage contract with a woman who is unwilling to fulfill her marital role, and beyond that, unwilling to pleasure herself with him in bed where he believes true intimacy is formed. The thought of intimacy without sex is generally foreign to a man, and yet many women want intimacy before sex, after sex, and any time but sex. Herein lies one of the great challenges of marriage, that many men are reaching for intimacy in the times that they playfully make love to their wives, and yet many women want to know their man loves them, without sex.
When it comes to sex, God's ways are very clear that with husband or wife, your body is not your own, but belongs completely to your spouse when it comes to the marriage bed. We are to please each other, and by pleasing each other it does not mean withholding sex, but rather entering into God's design where husband and wife put aside all of their cares and focus on being with, and uniting with, their spouse on a regular basis.
Imagine buying a house, but having to sleep elsewhere each night. or never being able to take a nap when tired. What an awful place to live! Just as men long to get regular sleep and be fully rested, they also want to have their sexual needs met on a regular basis, and in a fulfilling way. Sleep and sex, two most basic male needs, should be regularly fulfilled.
Imagine buying a house, but having to sleep elsewhere each night. or never being able to take a nap when tired. What an awful place to live! Just as men long to get regular sleep and be fully rested, they also want to have their sexual needs met on a regular basis, and in a fulfilling way. Sleep and sex, two most basic male needs, should be regularly fulfilled.
So.... Would men marry women if there was never any pleasure in sex?
You bet!!!!
Why? Because there is so much more to being a man than meeting our sexual needs and desires.
Have you noticed that almost all worldly creations and inventions have been made by or discovered by a man. This is not by accident, or because women are somehow inferior to men, or not given the opportunities that men have been given, but because men have in their DNA, and in their hormones, the need to create, to discover, to conquer, and to achieve great success. We are far from content when it comes to finding our purpose in life.
Have you noticed that almost all worldly creations and inventions have been made by or discovered by a man. This is not by accident, or because women are somehow inferior to men, or not given the opportunities that men have been given, but because men have in their DNA, and in their hormones, the need to create, to discover, to conquer, and to achieve great success. We are far from content when it comes to finding our purpose in life.
Most men are on a quest to leave something of themselves behind. For me, my greatest legacy will not be in the significant success I have had as a consultant, or in helping others achieve their goals in life, but rather in the time, energy and effort that I have invested in my family to raise up four godly kids who in their own right are highly successful in meeting God's purpose for their lives.
This purpose that burns within me stands head and shoulders above any pleasures that I may seek in life. I've spent countless overtime hours each week, traveled the globe, mastered foreign languages, and thrown up all night just to rise and give eight hour lectures, all because I have a purpose in life that I am driven to fulfill.
Not every man lives with purpose in mind, but most godly men do. We know that the day will come when we stand before our Creator and our ultimate purpose will be achieved when we hear Him say,
"Well done good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of your Master."
Compared to this purpose all else pales. I believe this purpose is built into all men, at least until it is drowned out by worldly worries and pleasures. Men don't jump in front of moving cars, or in front of a knife blade, or go to war for their wife and family because they want sex. No, men enter marriage and seek after relationships for far nobler causes and none the least of these is to leave a legacy behind. A legacy of love, honor, duty, commitment, hard work, and most of all commitment to someone outside of ourselves who we can honor and cherish for a lifetime.
If many men have lost their way and have reduced marriage down to a simple contract for lifelong sex, then such men are badly mistaken as to their calling and purpose. For life must be much more than a bundle of connected neurons stimulated by hormonal and electrical impulses. No, the human animal is free to make choices and it is by these choices that we are ultimately defined as to who we are in life, and who we will become.
The World says choose pleasure, pride, worldly success, self-centeredness, for you only have one life to live, so be a taker, not a giver, and see how much you can get by giving as little as possible in return. All lies that in no way conform to the image of the Son of God.
For this man, intimacy and pleasure with my wife is very important, but it pales in comparison to what God has called me to; a lifelong of serving my wife and my family. God says choose Me, and by doing so I will give you all that my Son has to offer in this life and the next.
This is my commandment,
that you love one another
as I have loved you.
that you love one another
as I have loved you.
Logging you in...
Tracy Word · 599 weeks ago
Mrs. B. · 599 weeks ago
Tiffany · 599 weeks ago
Cabinetman · 599 weeks ago
This comes from a man who has been married for fifteen years and has literally laid down his life for his wife and could not be happier. Marriage is about finding companionship, a helpmate but most definetly HUGELY about sex for man. To insinuate otherwise is deceitful.
Ken · 599 weeks ago
First let me dispel the idea that I do not see sex as HUGELY important to a man. Using my “sleep in your home” analogy that would mean sex 7 times a week and a couple of naps.
What you seem to take exception to is that I believe most men would marry even if sexual pleasure never existed. If sex were a chore for a man, or it mildly hurt each time instead of feeling pleasurable, almost every godly man I know would still marry because of the many other benefits marriage has to offer, none the least is the fulfillment of God’s command to “be fruitful and multiply.”
What would your life look like now without your wife and kids? Who will you grow old with, and who will help care for you as you age? What will you believe about your life when you are ready to pass on to the next life without a wife and kids, or family legacy? What joy will you be giving up not able to watch your kids be successful, win the championship, grow up to marry and to give you the best gift of all, grandchildren.
Yes, sex is very important to a man, and it certainly pushes a godly man to get married so he can have sex, every day, if that is what he wants. But even without sex this man would marry, and take on the great responsibilities that come with having a wife and children. Take away sex and you do not have a one way street. Your wife is your help meet, companion, laughs at your jokes and takes good care of your many needs. Your kids may grow up to support you some day, or to watch over you when you are sick, of just need a shoulder to cry on.
So now tell me, if you could not have sex, or only unenjoyable sex required to procreate, would you still have married your doll? Could you not be head over heels in love with her even if she could physically only give you sex once a week?
There is nothing deceitful about pointing out how important sex is to a man, yet also recognizing that men are not animals, and are able to make good choices that go away from our base needs to achieve goals, success, and a legacy even when our wives withhold sex. If your premise is true, then the divorce rate would be far higher as I know many a Christian man who married and was rationed sex as if it was chocolate in World War II. They fulfill their marriage vows even without sex, but yes, the desire for sex often gets men into a marriage, but it is not the end all and be all of marriage, especially for a godly man.
Cynthia · 599 weeks ago
1. I would agree that an atmosphere of coldness and lack of love is not good for kids, but would you be willing to stick with a marriage if there was a physical reason for lack of intimacy? Would you leave a spouse who was sick, or who was told that pregnancy could endanger her life?
2. I know a woman whose marriage ended a couple of years ago, after her husband came out of the closet. They have children. Does this show that some men will marry in order to have kids even if sex with their wife is not something that they desire, or does it show the perils of marrying when a man is not sexually attracted to his wife?
Cabinetman · 599 weeks ago
I'm guessing your directing your questions at me, because Ken obviously would for #1.
#1) There is a few question there, so I'll address each on as it's own because they are very much seperate situations. Would I be willing to stick with a marriage if there was s physical reason for lack of intimacy? I'm guessing that you mean there was no phyisical reason for lack of intimacy. I had already stated that I would stay with my wife if she became paralyzed tomorrow, although it greatly saddened me to know that I would probably sin sooner or later with some regularity no matter how hard I fought it. My wife and I have spoken about what would happen if either of us did become sick or passed on. She knows I love here more than anything, far more than myself but also knows the reality of men being alive and is at peace with that. But no, I would not leave her and I would continue to love my wife dearly. (something else you might not agree on is there is no place in the Bible that does not allow two wives for a man. I believe one man one woman to be the ideal, and what is to be desired for and truly what a godly marriage is, but it is not considered sinful for a man to have more than one wife...unlawful in America in this day but not against scripture). If there was no sex, but no physical reason/ailment for it...I would still stay married. It would be a long loving, prayerful process that eventually would lead to Mat 18. If repentence was not taken, then I would remain married but she would be required to leave, live on her own and provide for her self until repentence is made. This might seem cold and hard, but it is very much both what God instructs of us and believe me if you believe God's word it is very much what will happen if you & I don't hold up our end of our the "covenent" contract with Him. Except it won't be cold for eternity, but very hot if you get my drift. It's about showing love & grace for a long time (years) before that happens, but never the less there comes a time when someone needs to know the consquences of their sin. To be clear, the only biblical reason I can find for divorce is adultery or abandonment by an unbelieving spouse (not even abuse as some claim). A refusing spouse is so close to the line on both those counts, but I don't believe crosses over. Only someone who has been the refused can know the pain, it is worse than wanting to die and quite honestly the ultimate rejection. Even in the two biblical reasons, I don't think it's best to divorce in most cases. Sometimes a seperation so that the one or both who are in sin can feel the full weight and consquences of their sin, but divorce is the last, final and hopefully almost never sought option. Trust me, even the absolute worst of marriages can be turned into shining lights of joy & peace.
#2) I don't know whether this man knew he was gay (I'm not even sure I believe in such a thing...I think someone can have tendencies that way but it is still a conscience choice) before he was married. Confused. Hoping marriage would change him. etc. There are so many variables I couldn't even begin to pick it apart except to say that he is in sin. That he let down his wife and children very, very badly and to pray God's mercy, grace, healing and peace to be with them. Obviously, don't get married to someone you aren't attracted to, no matter how bad you want sex, no matter how bad you want children, no matter how bad you want safety, security and companionship. You aren't being honest and you are most likely setting yourself up and more importantly setting your spouse up for a lifetime of hurt.
Ken · 599 weeks ago
So you do not like my example because in real life sex exists…. But not for some. I knew a pastor once who it hurt to have sex so he stopped, at least the physical act. Are you saying his marriage is over? That he cannot continue to be a great husband and family man, even if sex disappears from his life? How about your life? Sex can be gone in an instant. Does everything else which is much more important in life disappear because you cannot enjoy one of life’s pleasures? Of course not.
I am not letting any wife of the hook by writing what I wrote. I am simply explaining that anyone who grows up, and especially those who grow up in Christ, come to a realization that life is so much more about relationships, and doing for others than about my hormonal needs.
Again, do not get me wrong. I think that godly men need to gently, but clearly explain their need for sex, their desired pattern for sex and intimacy, and then ask their wives to please be willing to fulfill those needs. But if my wife is sick, which mine has been for 25 years, and she cannot deliver on my needs, I do not kick and scream, or go elsewhere to meet my desires. I know that I can choose something far more noble and pleasing to God, to put aside my fleshly desires and walk I in the Spirit.
You ask about Paul’s admonition that it is better to be as he is, single, and the context gives the answer. Paul says, “I think then that this is good in view of the present distress, that it is good for a man to remain as he is” (1 Cor 7:26). I believe the weight of the scriptures is totally pro-marriage, pro-family, and that marriage is the primary way that God creates an eternal family of God. Paul was speaking at a specific point in time that would have been quite testing to be married or have a family. If 1 Cor. was written in 55 A.D., Emperor Claudius would have just been murdered, perhaps by Nero who came to power in 54 A.D. Other heirs to the throne are subsequently murdered, and Rome must have been in some sort of disarray. Paul is expecting Christ to return any day, and with all this turmoil his personal advice is, stay single, or stay as you are right now “in view of the present distress.”
Paul is so string on righteousness, and right living that he also admonishes those who cannot delay or stay single to marry rather than burn. To believe that the single life is somehow a superiors spiritual life makes no sense in light of God’s command to be fruitful and multiply.
You write: “would I want to raise them with a woman that wouldn't have sex with me? No. My kids would be much better off not being in a household with that lack of love.”
I cannot disagree with you more my friend. Do you know how many wonderful Christian kids were raised with one godly parent and the other showing little or no love? Is that not the purpose of Paul’s admonition to women that they can “win their husband without a word?” Just by showing the grace of God to man who may deserve no grace at all?
What happened to sacrificial love? Is not your premise the main reason why divorce is rampant in the world today, because almost every marriage goes through dry times when one, or both partners become very unloving, yet when one will show Christ’s love into the ugliness of the other, it is then that Christ does His greatest work of redemption. What about the cross, and the cross that I am to bear for Christ?
Trust me, I think I like sex as much or more than most, but I also know that mankind must heed the Biblical admonition to have their mind and spirit exercise control over ones flesh. When Paul refers to flesh he really means all fleshly desires, not just sinful ones. That when one is not in control of the flesh it is almost always sin.
So sex has a god given large role in a marriage… to this we both agree. You think 55% importance… I don’t get it? Does that mean you are getting sex 55% of your day? Or 55% of you day or life is ruined if you do not get sex for a day or week?
Ken · 599 weeks ago
Sex is a great thing, but it deserves no more than 15 minutes a day of my successful filled, satisfied life. Ya, it may feel like 55% if a man is not getting it, but once your needs are satisfied you move on to things that are far more important in life, relationships, building things, growing things, building God’s Kingdom, serving. These are of far greater importance than your flesh… and hence why Paul focuses so much on “keeping it under” control. Give sex its rightful place, but don’t exaggerate its importance. Impotence will come to all of us, and that does not mean 55% of our life is over. It may actually mean that some men will stop thinking just with what is in their pants, and will finally be able to serve God and righteousness more fully.
Even non-christians make choices that go against their flesh for noble and honorable causes, none the least is giving up one’s life for country or friend. And you do not love sex more than your kids if you would die for them. You would go to prison for ten years for them and get no sex… so you just think it is more important, but you are a noble Christian man. Push comes to shove sex takes a back seat to other much more noble things in life.
Cabinetman · 599 weeks ago
I guess I just plain disagree with you. Mostly because you base your whole notion on that there are much more noble things in life, much more important things...that my friend is why I have huge issues with what you wrote. We disagree on the pivot point and cornerstone of your whole arguement. I can't even tell you how many men have the left the faith because of exactly that attitude by their wife and church. Sorry, I respect you. But I disagree with you strongly. No use argueing about it anymore.
Cabinetman · 599 weeks ago
I can't seem to shake your comments because (and I mean this respectfully) the underlying theme are framed from an twisted, somewhat evil mindframe (although I don't think you realize this). Sex between a husband and wife is the ultimate form of love. You have debased it to a physical release only exercise. It is no more "base" than telling your wife you love her. It is no more selfish than every other "love" aspect of a relationship, in fact I would argue it is above most. Is serving the poor more noble than making love to your wife? Is taking your kids on a dads day more noble than making love to your wife? I would guess that by your text you would answer yes to both of these. You have reduced a sex to a somewat selfish, yet enjoyable act. When nothing could be further from the truth. Why is this act the ultimate bond, the very act of marriage...how do you get to this conclusion. It seems to go against every thing scripture teaches about the meaning of this act and the metaphors of marriage on illustrating Christ and His Bride's relationship.
I also totally do not agree with your intrepretation of Paul's teaching on better to remain single. Do you not expect the Lord back any day? Do you really think Paul's time was more evil and the days were shorter than now? Do you really believe that was just a historical context and not a biblical teaching? How do you feel about women teaching? Having authority over men? Homosexuality? Are those also just "historical" context teachings? It's a slippery slope my friend.
Ken · 599 weeks ago
I have given you a 35% priority for sex in the life of many man and said that it is the “bonding glue” to a marriage relationship, yet you need me to see that it is an even greater priority? or somehow more noble? than raising a child to love the Lord, taking care of the poor, or delivering a good day’s work for a good days pay?
The apostle Paul makes it very clear that we walk in the Spirit, and no longer walk in the flesh. That the believer can exercise good choices to put self and selfishness aside to do a myriad of more noble things to advance the Kingdom of God.
What you do in your marriage be may indeed be a very noble act, but unless your wife is united with you in spirit with such a glorious intention in mind… unless you are first looking out to her needs in the right timing, and holding out love for her whole well- being, then the act quickly becomes a one-sided exercise to meet your physical needs and desires.
Welcome to the real world my friend where many Christian men find themselves with selfish wives, or misinformed wives, or wives who are not able to prioritize for a 35% sexual bonding with their husband, let alone a 55% bonding. What about the man whose wife has gained weight to the point that he no longer finds her sexually simulating? The man who discovers he has strong gay feelings, yet he stays in his marriage and fulfills his marriage responsibilities in a noble and God-honoring way as he struggles with his flesh. The list is endless, but it is the list of reality. Are all of these men somehow missing out on their most important of callings, because they do not match your perception of the priority of intimate bonding within the marriage bed?
No way! Our instruction to all couples must be to make the marriage bed and intimate bonding a priority, but we do not teach that when the baby needs a diaper change, or your child falls and needs attention; when your kid is getting a school award, or playing in a big game; when the job requires traveling, or a neighbor needs help moving, that we do not push our time of intimacy aside for a few hours, or days, to be able to live a complete and balanced life.
You write, “You have debased it to a physical release only exercise,” and that is simply not true. But because of the inability of many couples to bond as they should, or because of the limitations that are placed in some marriages by physical illness, headaches, general malaise, the physical still must be met as best possible within the marriage bed, even if the rest of your ideals are not.
You cannot both claim that Paul’s admonition to stay single is somehow a good or the best thing, and then say that for men, sex and the bonding of marriage deserves a 55% priority. If one’s sex life in a marriage is so noble, why does Paul say stay single? His whole premise is about finding a cure for one’s “burning” passion, and he has zero to say about marriage bed bonding between husband and wife. For that matter nowhere in the scriptures do you find marriage bed bonding to be explained, admonished, or considered a noble activity, except for perhaps the Song of Solomon, if one wants to try and exegete poetry.
BUT ... I agree that sex in the marriage bed can achieve noble aspirations, and that women should recognize that built into most godly husbands is not just a desire for the physical but for the true full sense of “the two shall become one flesh.” We can infer based on our understanding of psychology, chemistry, and human relations that this means far more than just physical, but if this was any huge priority for God do you not believe that He would have spent passages spelling this out for us? As the good book gives us “all we need for life and godliness” … does it not?
You way overemphasize the marriage bed my friend. Give it its proper place and due, but once you have had your sexual relations for the day, you move on to many more noble things, including investing in your family, your job and your future security, then move on to store up eternal rewards. Many of us have given up marriage bonding time for our jobs. I traveled almost half the year while raising four little kids. I would have no better relationship with my wife today had I bonded with her more during those years. Marriage, like life, is a day to day thing that has some vestiges of the past that build it, but if my marriage and life relationship with my wife is as perfect as it can be today, what noble cause did we lose out on the first 15 years of marriage when sex was mainly a physical release?
Ken · 599 weeks ago
I know you will misunderstand me again, so let me try to be clear. Your ideal for sexual intimacy within the marriage bed is indeed noble and a wonderful thing to aspire to, but what do you say in your counsel to men who do not have a spouse who is willing, or able, to deliver on those aspirations? Am I to think that somehow 55% of my life is defective if my wife gives me sex, but she never really bonds intimately with me in the act? No, because your 55% priority is physical and will be burned up in the end. It is perhaps a means to an end, but not the end in itself. My kids cannot love Jesus more with or without a wife who can bond sexually with me. Their love for Jesus comes from watching Mom and Dad love each other, even when they may disagree on the degree, frequency or intimacy of sexual relations. Life is so much more than this!
Give sex in marriage its proper place and priority. You are way out of this world with your thoughts and ideals on this subject. To believe that what I am teaching has an “evil mind frame” is to just be silly. Such comments make me think you are not a man at all, but some feminist troll who is playing with me. Hand our dialogue to your pastor or any fine godly friend and ask him if you are not being silly, or warped in your need to find more “angels dancing on the head of a pin.” I have agreed with you more than half way, if you have more to say, give me some scripture to defend this noble priority of sexual bonding in the marriage bed. It does not exist in real life for most men, although I grant you this, if you have a wife willing to go along, go for it! It is God’s ideal, but when God’s ideal is not met with positive movement from my wife, I move on to many more noble things that will define my life, and will hopefully not be burned up when Christ returns.
Cabinetman · 599 weeks ago
First, I don't want this to become mean spirited. I've never corresponded with you before, but I see your wife's comments in places and I know we are not enemies. So please don't feel like I'm trying to attack you, I'm not. I'm trying to attack this idea that sex is 15 minutes and isolated to that 15 minutes. First, 15 minutes is pretty quick. Second, that 15 minutes changes your whole day. It changes the way you look at your wife,the way you treat one another, it changes the way you look at the world, God's creation. If it doesn't, you are rare indeed. You seem to keep sex isolated and wrapped up in one neat little package that doesn't effect the rest of your life. Every study ever done has proven exactly the opposite, quite drastically at that. So I believe I am giving it is proper place in marriage, because we are talking about marriage not about fatherhood, work, or ministry. The title and emphasis of your post was the importance of sex in regards to men and MARRIAGE...but you keep talking about everything else.
Second, it's funny how you talk about me being a feminist troll...I don't know how you can get to that. I'm about the most anti-feminist big, hairy muscular dude who doesn't believe in women teaching in church or having authority over men man you'd run across. The whole point of my post was you sounded a little feministy in this "honey, I would love you & even marry you even without sex" post...and I don't agree with that theme at ALL, zero! You say it's important and then you go onto to explain how unimportant it is in great zeal. Right down to feeding the poor being more important. Seriously, if you think feeding the poor is more important we could never find common ground. This is from a man who spent years on the streets working with the homeless and broke up knife fights between wino's with no weapon (no one ever accused me of being extremely bright...including you!).
My friend you may think I am way out of this world, but I believe the same of you. You say you have the perfect marriage and I would argue I have it. You say you love Christ with all your heart, I say I'd die for my faith. Listen, if sex is so unimportant to you that you could take it or leave it for fifteen years & pass it up for um...work. That's you. But that's not most christian men. It certainly wasn't David. It applied to Paul, so you have a brother in common there. You made huge generalizations of men...this post my apply to you but it certainly does not apply to the majority of christian men. You keep talking about all these men that are rationed sex yet living godly lives. They are rare indeed. For every one you can name on that list I could give you 10 that could be doing so much more for their families and the kingdom of God if they were not totally demoralized and broken & if they were indeed being loved the way God designed them to be & the way they were promised to be. Don't get me wrong, you aren't wrong. You are just wrong for a great many of christian men.
Ken · 599 weeks ago
I ask the question do men marry JUST for sex, and I answer it by saying that sex has a huge priority in a man's life and view of marriage (35%) BUT that men would still marry even if sex had no pleasure at all because of the noble things that come from marriage, not the least is children and a legacy.
I think I see now what you are hating in my message. You want to make the message of sexual relations in marriage such a priority that no wife can wiggle out of her contractual obligations. What you hate is indeed the wiggle room some women will find by saying, "Men can just go on to other noble things and so if I do not fulfill my marital role, it is not so bad."
Let the truth stand on its own, and that truth is as you say it in your first paragraph. Sexual relations in a marriage has the potential to not only satisfy, but to fulfill a man and make him feel whole and in some ways complete. He is in a much better position to conquer the world and to impact his sphere of influence throughout the day when he knows he is one with his bride.
I get all that, but I ask you again, now what do you say to the myriad of men whose wives don't get it. Do you think that if I had truncated my post to just place a high priority on sex within marriage that this would have been the whole truth and nothing but the truth? No, you just want to box Christian wives in, when the reality is, that many noble lives have been and continue to be lived by husbands whose spouse does not truly bond in sexual intimacy with him for many years.
I know of many such marriages, and I know there is pain and a sense of sadness on the part of these husbands because their wives just don't get it. They do not see that the sexual banter and foreplay throughout the day is a longing for intimacy. They think that it is all about the sexual act and if somehow I just please him 10 minutes a day he will go away and leave me alone.
Many men cannot even express to even their godly wives what they sense they need from them while they make love, or as they live together throughout the day. How many times has a husband said something teasingly sexual just to get a cold shoulder thrown on his smile? How many times has his gentle tap on her behind been met with a scowl, or "I don't like that!?" How often do men just want to play with their wives and enjoy them building up to a moment of sexual bonding only to hear, "OK I have 10 minutes. Let's get this over with."
I get it my friend... for you and me, and millions of men, but not all, we feel we can be more complete if our woman took half the time she spends on Facebook and invested that time in getting to know us, or doing for us what we have asked for repeatedly. And I mean "know" in a physical, psychological, emotional and spiritual way.
I am also sure that there are many women who feel exactly the same way about their husband. This is not uniquely male, but they may not realize that the path they seek runs right through love making. They long for the heart of true intimacy where husband and wife are one, much like the Father and Son are one. Is that not one of the true purposes of marriage? To model the intimacy between the oneness of the godhead and the oneness we are to have in Christ?
So I get loud and clear. That you have read what I have written and decided it left Christian wives a path to rationalize their broken marital commitments? That it gives them an "out" to say that my man will move on to other noble things even if I do not fulfill my role in his life?
Good luck with your teaching on this subject, but this Christian man sees a whole world existing of terrific Christian men who honor their wives and family, their jobs and churches, even when their marital sexual bonding is weak, or nonexistent. To say it is not true, when it is, is unfair.
Ken · 599 weeks ago
I hope that you never have to discover this reality, and that your godly wife will continue to be bonded in true intimacy with you the rest of your lives together. But I venture to say that indeed my older years, or my circumstances, may have given me a more knowledgeable, or at least better balanced perspective on this issue.
Life is much more than circumstances, much more than hormones raging, and far more than eating, drinking or having sex in marital bliss and intimacy. Life is about choices, and my choice is to follow Jesus with all my heart, mind and soul, and to choose to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.
So come on all the Christian men out there, who are feeling unfulfilled in your marriage bed, and do something about it. Go to your wife and let her read this exchange of thoughts, and help her to understand that you want intimacy on your terms, the way God made you. That you cannot figure out how to push and pull all of her buttons all day long so that at the end of the day she "will be in the mood." That she must trust you and God's Word, that if she just follows your lead and accepts your every movement towards intimacy without qualifications, that you can far faster become the man that God intended you to be. That in this way she completes you, and in turn you have more to give back to her, and to the family, and the world. It is God's design... if only women understood men :).
OK my friend, is that what you want me to say? To cry out on behalf of all men to their wives to let go and let the man take the lead not just in the marriage, but in bed and in the bonding that comes from the sparks ignited in bed and carried throughout the day, and a lifetime?
Or am I missing something?
Cabinetman · 599 weeks ago
You speak to me like I don't know what I'm talking about. Did you read my posts? Did you notice that decade long span I mentioned. I have seen the other side of this coin but what I didn't do was concede to the feminist point of view and change the way God made me and most men. I fought for my marriage. I fought for my wife. I fought for our sex life. Did I do it for me? Sure. But just as much for my wife and my children and the kingdom of God. Because I knew, quite plainly there was no way to be the husband I needed to be without it. And when I'm not the husband I need to be, I can't be the father I need to be. And when home isn't right I can't go out and conquer the world for my family or Christ. You call it selfish. My wife would have at that time also. She now laughs at your posts and goes, "what is this guy Ken thinking?". She knows she is treated better than any wife, that I quite literally lay down my life for her. That I wash her in the truth of the Word. My problem is what you call selfish is not necessarily so-although it can be. What you call unnoble, most certainly can be the most noble. You argue everything from a sex damaged wives vantage point and sometimes jump over to the sex starved husband vantage point and not the truth of God vantage point & the glorious example a truly life giving marriage can be vantage point. You set up what you say as the ideal. It is not.
Ken · 599 weeks ago
That is far from the truth, and I am sorry you see it that way. Lori is the one to make clear the woman's role in marriage, and my post was intended to explicitly elevate sex to its rightful place in a marriage without making it the end all and be all of a man's existence.
You have less than a hand full of passages which speak to your view of sex within marriage, and your greatest argument is that so many men appear castrated in their lives by their wives? Bologna!
Slice and dice our conversation however you like, but my life outlook, attitudes, work ethic, love, care and concern, successes are controlled by no one but myself. If my wife is not meeting my real or perceived needs I must rise up above the circumstances and not allow her choices to dictate my life.
If you want to say that you are disappointed that I wrote about these truths on a woman's blog because you feel it does men a disservice, so be it. Say it and move on.
The author of the blog believes that I have rendered to her readers a genuine Christian perspective. That sex to a man is the bonding glue of intimacy, but it is not the end all or be all of our existence. And if in life God places times of trials, and withholding of sex, we accept such circumstances with grace and move on to conquer all of the many things God has purposed for us.
If single men can have great purpose in life, why not a married man who is withheld sex? And if one of the greatest achievements of man in life is his kids, you bet you and I would marry even if sex were pleasurable because we are not animals. We choose the greater good, a place to invest our lives, with and without marital sexual intimacy.
I am moving on to other things. It seems unproductive for the two of us to be arguing over this when we agree so fundamentally on so much concerning marital sex. I cannot go back and change what is written, nor do I wish to adopt your point of view. Show me scripture that says a man would not marry without sex, and I will retract all that I have written. Yet I can show you myriads of passages of scripture all pointing to a much higher calling to men with or without the a fulfilling marriage bed.
Lastly, do not blame the women only for a lack of sexual intimacy and fulfillment. I have found that a large number of Christian men are wimps when it comes to leadership in this area and many others. They have allowed their wives to lead and they thus suffer the consequences of their own, for lack of a better word, "whimpiness."
You have failed to convince me with any thought that men would not marry if sex were not pleasurable. I promise you Adam and Eve would have married and fulfilled God's command, along with a myriad of others who would have found building a society, and safety, security and progeny, to be vital necessities of the married life... with or without sex. I am sorry if postulating this truth has you distraught because some woman may use it to excuse her behavior. The truth is that such a woman would have found another excuse, and my writing will not be the cause to fear.
Is it not possible that you have spent so many hours fighting for your package of thoughts that you are now splitting hairs with a friend and ally in the cause of advancing sexual intimacy in marriages?
Cabinetman · 599 weeks ago
I will grant you that modern men have definetly attributed to the problem, both with their wimpiness (which unless you are a true "alpha" (I hate that word) or truly, truly grounded in the Word of God is aweful easy and encouraged in the modern church and world & it's laws) & also their sinfulness. I'm definetly not pinning this solely on women. Men deserve some of the blame. Our pastors and teachers deserve a great deal of it also, the modern churches teaching on this is shameful. Your wife is interesting in that she is a regular at Sheila's and SSM's...I never could understand someone who could reconcile both opposite points of view, but God bless her.
I also don't understand why you think a wife necessary if you can be all you can be without her as you seem to imply by making the choices you do. Can a man live a productive and even somewhat happy life without? Yes. Can it be nearly as great as man who has a true loving woman by his side. Sadly, I don't think so. Otherwise God would not have felt the need to create woman.
Can we just be two brothers who love Christ, believe we are both coming down on biblically on this, both who love our wives dearly and just disagree on this? I really don't want to tear my brother down no matter how wrong on this issue I think he is. God bless you and keep you and may His face shine upon you.
Ken · 599 weeks ago
As you can probably guess, I have a pretty strong character so it would be tough to make me feel torn down, especially in a discussion with another godly guy, no matter how much we may disagree on the subject.
Lori is strongly Biblical and comes down hard on the side of righteous living and walking as God clearly instructs us. She likes both SSM and Sheila, and believes both have something to offer. They and their commenters help her try and understand some of the mindset out there in the Christian world that she is trying to minister into.
Every believer belongs in the big arms of Jesus, and yes, our pastors probably deserve much of the blame for allowing the feminist agenda to have rushed into the churches. Finding one who will not immediately run to "mutual submission" when the subject is to be taught is like finding a needle in the haystack.
Well you know all this stuff... if you get to San Diego some day, let me know and lets have lunch... or give me your city as I travel... then we can finish our discussion.
I am doing my own poll with an honest question to Christian men, "Would you marry if sex was not pleasurable" without any extra comment. So far I am 1 for 1 from a 25 year old single guy who started in on a litany of reasons I have already discussed. You start asking ... and let's compare notes some day.
Thanks for the discussion... I hope I have not been too big a disappointment to you my friend :).
Cabinetman · 599 weeks ago
Not a disappointment at all. I can respect anyone who is willing to take a stand against wimpy church men and the feminist agenda in the church that is everywhere!
I don't get to California...born there, but can't conceal carry there. I limit my travels to states that respect my 2nd amendment right.
I tune into these blogs for the same reason your wife does...it gives me the temperature of the Church and it's mindset. That helps me better lead my wife and family...and keeps me humble.
God bless-
Cabinetman · 599 weeks ago
One last question, not related to this so much, if you oblige...is it possible we are both right? Is it possible on issues like this that are not spelled out exactly in scripture that it depends on the couple and person we marry (who hopefully God gave to us)?
Your thoughts about Sheila for example. Not to discourage the lady. She's a fellow christian and I'm sure she's helping some christian women. But to use her teaching as an example. I can't go there as a godly, loving, non-wimpy husband without my blood absolutely boiling at least once a week. I mean no matter how hard I try to walk in peace & the Spirit, she quite literally has me seeing red. Literally, if she was married to a man like me we would have killed each other. Both folks who love the Lord. Who have taught for HIs Kingdom. Both who have great marriages. What's the answer? I mean, I'll be honored to share heaven with her someday but to be honest if my church ever hosted her I'd drop my membership and picket out front. How do we deal as christians who mean well, are trying to walk in truth and yet disagree so passionately? If there is one thread running throughout all these blogs, besides wimpy men and feminist women, it is this great disconnect. How are we to hold passionately to God's Word and if we believe we know something and that the other is hurting other christians with their teaching & yet be loving, gentle and united while doing so?
And you thought the sex question was hard!
Ken · 599 weeks ago
I would suggest the Lord may want us to keep the following in mind:
"If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men." (Romans 12:18)
Could we both be right? Probably not on something so concrete as "Would men marry..." but on many other issues truth is often multifaceted. Much like the discussion of grace vs. freewill if one is not careful they soon fall off the horse (the truth) by overemphasizing things that God may easily reconcile outside of time.
Submission and "husbands love your wives" is a little that way and that is why one must stand separate from the other even as they are interconnected. For a wife to blame her unwillingness to submit on her husbands poor love for her is not much more than a feeble excuse, yet for a man to blame his lack of love because his wife does not fully submit, or submit at all is invalid. Both husband and wife must do what God commands irregardless of what their spouse does. For goodness sake they did choose to marry them.
So because truth can be viewed so differently like a multifaceted diamond at times, it is easy to see how some do not agree with me. Then again some simply do not know their Bible, and others put on rose colored glasses of "love covers all."
What I think I am learning is that no matter how strongly I hold a position, even if I have exegeted the passage in the Greek,if I am not showing love in the way I am dealing with the truth as I share it, I am nothing more than a clanging symbol. How I make my point and yet show love in making it is not always easy, And some believe me to be unloving just for holding a conservative, literal view and for that can do nothing about.
I like to remind people about how Jesus seems to have handled his detractors, and sinners. He might rail against sin and false righteousness, but after the fact, once sin was committed we never see Him condemn the sinner. There is a demand for righteousness, yet full of grace fir the fallen. Can we be like him? I am trying.
Don't read Sheila so much if she bothers you ... I see her as a good self help, christian "marriage basics teacher. Like the one you and I had when we got married. Teaching couples how to be sensitive and understanding. How to argue right and understand our spouse better.I think at times she is close to actually getting it when it comes to submission, and it is her husband's fault she still doesn't get it completely because "he's happy with me."
Well, God did not say make your man happy with you, he said be submissive, and now we will have 90% of Christianity do gymnastics to redefine submission to water it down to something far less than what most women are giving their employer in obedience each day.
Good night my friend, and if this stuff has your blood boiling what are we going to do about about health insurance doubling :{. We are frogs in a pot that is reaching boiling point, and if we do not jump out soon... we will all be under the new world order. Then we will all know what submission looks like.
Cabinetman · 599 weeks ago
I'm like you more all the time. That's about how I've come to see it and deal with it...but never had a another man put it how I felt (hate that word) it to be true. Thank you. In Christ-
Ken · 599 weeks ago
I was thinking about your question, "Is it possible on issues like this that are not spelled out exactly in scripture that it depends on the couple and person we marry (who hopefully God gave to us)?"
Certainly with God's truths as applied to marriage, it must be worked through two personalities, two preferences, two sets of hormones and two sets of understanding. The areas of disagreement allows the couple to display many of God's other truths and requirements on their lives. Even with Christ at the center of a marriage what does that mean?
To one godly couple it means 100% instant obedience by the wife to all a husband commands. To another godly marriage they work together to arrive at good conclusions with husband serving wife more than vice versa; and in the last example of a godly marriage a husband who requires his wife to hold him accountable for many things because he recognizes that her capacity for leading a disciplined life is far greater than his.
Each one of these marriages can have fully submissive wives and a husband who loves his wife as Christ loves the church. But to each one they may feel that their approach to marriage is the one that should be emulated.
We know that wives are to be submissive and obedient. We know that husbands are to love their wives and lead the family. Now within those two truths can be many differing models with none of them wrong so long as the two commands are honored.
Where we have missed the boat too often is in watering down one side of the equation, or expecting one side to do their part when the other is not. Then it gets all mixed up because men will not lead by gently and yet firmly telling their wives what they need from them without argument and saying it in a loving way. That is what is not being taught to our men that you and I may have learned from the school of hard knocks.
Maybe we start a blog together to train men how to lovingly lead their wives :).
If you ever want to contact me use this email: Kalexan328 at aol.com.
Have a fun day and I hope your team wins :).