Thursday, March 20, 2014

Biblical Submission Is So Misunderstood


The concept of Biblical submission as it relates to marriage is very misunderstood in the church and outside of it. God’s truths are often far more complex than what they appear on the surface, as are many Biblical ideals. Most of the ideals for a Christian marriage can be summed up as simply "being Christian" to each other by trying to serve and please one another.  

“I want to show the Jesus living in me to you in the way I love, serve and please you.” 

The Bible, and the godly principles taught therein, is our operating system, and God's Word should be first and foremost on the minds of both husband and wife. To please each other goes beyond a 50% marriage and instead seeks the best interest and desires of your spouse before your own interest and desires. Is this not what Christ showed all Christians to do; to give up our lives in love and service towards one another? 

There should be nothing equal about my serving my spouse, but instead I should seek to out-produce him/her in almost every area of the marriage. Certainly we can have roles with husband working a job outside the home and the wife working within the home, but if either spouse needs help, even when it is not requested, we are to jump in and “do unto others” with selfless service and sacrifice.

Now you say, “This sounds great! But then why are so many Christian marriages failing if both spouses are trying to please each other?” The answer is simply that too many marriages are not living up to even a modest set of Biblical ideals. Many Christians are not acting like a Christian to their spouse because they selfishly want their share, their half, their ways.

What makes a Biblical marriage unique is not really submission, but the the order of things ~ "For the husband as head of the wife as Christ is head of the church" {Ephesians 5:23}. 

To go from a good Christian marriage to a strong Biblical marriage one must willingly move beyond mutual submission to understand how God prizes order in relationships. God assigns the husband's role to be leader not because he is smarter, wiser, stronger, but because God wants order. A relationship without a "head" is prone to potentially endless arguing, perhaps not in all marriages, but many. But beyond this a husband as head is to love his wife sacrificially, even when she does not follow.

C.S. Lewis puts it this way ~
"This headship, then, is most fully embodied not in the husband we should all wish to be but in him whose marriage is most like a crucifixion; whose wife receives most and gives least, is most unworthy of him, is - in her own mere nature - least lovable. For the Church has not beauty but what the Bride-groom gives her; he does not find, but makes her, lovely. The chrism of this terrible coronation is to be seen not in the joys of any man's marriage but in its sorrows, in the sickness and sufferings of a good wife or the faults of a bad one, in his unwearying {never paraded} care or his inexhaustible forgiveness: forgiveness, not acquiescence. As Christ sees in the flawed, proud, fanatical or lukewarm Church on earth that Bride who will one day be without spot or wrinkle, and labours to produce the latter, so the husband whose headship is Christ-like {and he is allowed no other sort} never despairs.”
The concept of “mutual submission” as perceived and believed by many in the church is an oxymoron because one cannot both be “subject to” and be the "head" or leader. One cannot lead and yet “submit in everything.”  Christ could not be both head of his church and submit to his church, and elders do not mutually submit to members. 

The concept of an "egalitarian marriage" often has both spouses looking for equality, as an “equal marriage” often means I am looking for my half, my rights, my needs to be met my way? Christ made it clear that all are to be treated with equal personhood, but our role is to serve and put others before our own selves.  

It is the "Biblical marriage" where the husband is the sacrificial leader and the wife is submissive and respectful of his position as the head of the family. When things go wrong, or become difficult, the godly spouse gives more, loves more and plays an even greater God given role to be "like Christ" to try and win over their difficult spouse .  

If you want a great marriage, move beyond egalitarianism to a Biblical marriage of pleasing and serving one another fully without waiting for your spouse to respond in like manner. Allow your spouse to play their role in God's order.  Beyond this, trust that the Holy Spirit is doing His work to bring you both into "One Flesh," just as Christ and His Church are One, and God the Father and Son are One. At the center of the Biblical One Flesh marriage is not principles, actions or deeds, but Christ Himself. 

Can you see Jesus in your marriage? 
If not, will you be the one who puts Him there no matter what?

Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus ... who humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name.
Philippians 2:3-9

***Written by Ken, as if you couldn't tell! ;)

Comments (25)

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Excellent!
I agree, excellent! And for the record, I thought it was written by Lori! :-)
"God assigns the husband's role to be leader not because he is smarter, wiser, stronger, but because God wants order. "

I have a quick question about this. So if the wife is smarter, wiser and stronger and the husband is either not intelligent enough, worldly enough or possesses enough common sense to make the decisions on his own, the wife's still should submit since God would rather have a man making horrendous decisions all in the name of "order" because he possesses the correct body parts, rather than the wife who does not possess these sacred body parts but is more capable than the husband.

If the reasoning behind submission is that God favours order in marriage, then it should be whomever is capable of making the best decisions that should be the leader, regardless of gender.

My wife is smarter than I am, she has also "lived" more than I have so therefore has more worldly experience. I am more responsible with money than she is, so we each bring strengths to the marriage and defer to one another as situations unfold. I don't see this as being the opposite as "orderly".
1 reply · active 573 weeks ago
I have a college degree, my husband does not. I have had more life experiences, my husband has not. These things do not mean I'm better than my husband to lead. With these experiences I'm able to make suggestions to him, and PRAY. God is infinite in working in my husband's heart. I've seen God work in my husband's mind and heart more than any suggestions I may give him. As for making any horrendous decisions, which has happened, I look to God. He guides me first. GOD-Husband-Wife. That order. When my husband doesn't follow God, I continue to do so.
You are correct Blake in pointing out that there is more to the story of the husband’s role as “head” than simply that God desires order. Unfortunately, space and time prevent a full discussion of the subject as it has many facets. Ultimately, whether you understand why God says, or designs, as He does, or not, is of little importance to one who serves under the Lordship of Christ Jesus. We may never have all our answers until we meet Him face to face, and we do not want Him to say to us, “Why did you call me Lord, Lord, but did not do what I say?”

This exact scenario plays itself out in many professional businesses across the world each day. The professional shows up to work with little a clue as to how to run his/her own business having just purchased it from a senior doctor. So how do they "lead" this practice forward?

Leadership is many things, but one of a leader’s greatest strengths is knowing his/her own weaknesses and surrounding themselves with people who fill in those weaknesses. It is not by accident that many people marry their opposite as far as personality, precisely because they desire the help and security of knowing that what they are weak in, their spouse is strong.

Carry this idea into a marriage and one can quickly imagine a marriage like yours. Perhaps a wife who is smarter or a better manager. One who is more “take charge” and get things done than you are. Leaders across the world are often pulling alongside of themselves these types of born leaders to be the Chief Operating Officer of the business while the Chief Executive Officer, the one with whom “the buck stops here.”

The Chairman of the Board of your family is Jesus, and he is telling you that you are the CEO of your family, not because of any body part, but because He owns your business and family. He wants you to stand before Him some day and give an account for how you managed and lead your family. I doubt He will be too pleased if you stand there and say, “That woman you gave me. You know she was smarter, wiser and harder worker than I am so I gave her all the leadership in the family. It is not my fault if things turned out badly. It’s the woman…”

I think we have all heard that story before and that may be precisely why God has put husbands in charge, “and he will rule over you.” God’s order of things was for Eve to be Adam’s partner, but with Adam leading. When Adam abdicated his God given responsibility to rule the world to his wife, he plunged all of mankind into sin. Imagine if he had simply said, “No honey. I will not eat the apple and we need to go talk to God about this and make it right.”

You as the appointed leader and head of your family have complete prerogative as to how you want your family to be managed, and the direction it goes as long as it honors God’s Word and Jesus. If that means delegating 99.9% of all tasks, duties, decisions, you are free to do so, BUT you remain the head. The buck stops with you when you stand before God some day and give an account. If you take this role seriously you will invariably do exactly what many young doctors are doing. They follow their team and the Office Manager for most daily operations, but they become involved in the month end review and larger decision making. They still may go along with what the Office Manager says to do, but they own it. They know that the success of this family does not belong ultimately to the Office Manager, but to the one who has their name on the door.

Is your name on the door of your family, or did you choose to use your wife’s name? If it is your name, then honor it by insuring that your family is going the direction they should be. Allow your wife’s personality and leadership style to blossom and flush under your leadership, and reserve the right to from time to time make small or large decisions that ultimately determine where your family will end up. Be the CEO of your family, but allow your wife to have the free reign in the operations of how the business runs, but especially from a spiritual standpoint, be sure your family is involved in the right church, having regular devotions, and participating with godly friends.

You, my friend, like it or not will be the one most held accountable for how your family lives here on earth. If you can stand before God and say, “I took the measly talent you gave me and handed it to my wife who is far more talented and together we had a wonderful Christian marriage and raised a terrific godly family,” then perhaps the Lord will say “Well done!”
cont.
But Blake something additional to think about should be that if God gave you the role of being the head and leader, maybe that is exactly what He wanted you to become? The new doctor is no leader in his/her first years, but fast forward 10-20 years later and they have learned and grown and developed their own leadership skills. It may be here when you stand before the Lord and say, “She was a better leader, so I followed along,” That God may say in response, “You missed the whole point of being the head. It was mainly about your spiritual journey!"

Is it possible that for you, being the head is precisely about you growing up mentally, emotionally and spiritually so you have something to offer others in this ream of life? Do you not think that God wants men everywhere to stop depending on their wives to make their lives easier, but instead to jump in and help your wife with this important task for which you will be both judged some day? It’s just a thought, but my understanding of what God is doing is to grow us all up into Christ Jesus. If you are not a natural leader, why not accept His call upon your life and at least partner with your spouse on leadership so that you can explain on the judgment day you did not bury your small talent, but instead grew it tenfold.
3 replies · active 573 weeks ago
Ken, my wife and I depend on each other to make our lives easier nor does she lead me. We each lead and follow each other as the situation warrants and that absolutely does not make me less grown up. On the contrary, I find that men who require obedience from their wives to be childish, incapable of being told when they're wrong and obsessed with being seen as strong and manly.

I think you have also misconstrued my marriage. My wife is fully capable of making her own decisions and decisions for our family when warranted, just as I am fully capable of making my own decisions and decisions for our family when warranted. Neither of us considers each other the leader and neither of us considers each other submissive to the other. We are partners and any decision that we can't come to an agreement on, the person who feels most strongly about it or the person who has more knowledge has final say.

I would like to also point out that marriage is not a business relationship. It is a joining of two equals, neither of them children incapable of making decisions. To compare the family structure to having a CEO and manager makes it seem that you believe that. You are the boss and your wife and children are your employees to be instructed and corrected.

As to your comment about the bible making me the appointed leader and head. I do not think of myself as that and therefore my wife making decisions is not because I have delegated that to her but rather because she has every right to do so as an adult.

The bible also says that slavery was perfectly fine, eating shellfish is a sin and we should stone women on her fathers' door if she is not a virgin on her wedding night. It was written at a time where people knew nothing and so searched for answers elsewhere.

May I also remind you, that the bible was written by mortal men who claimed to be influenced by God at a time where women were considered to be chattel and next to nothing as human beings under the law.

My last point is this. If I ever stand before God and have to account for my life. Whatever right or wrong occurred, I would absolutely not be saying "“That woman you gave me. You know she was smarter, wiser and harder worker than I am so I gave her all the leadership in the family. It is not my fault if things turned out badly. It’s the woman…” . Again, my wife is not the leader of me nor I her. We are partners and therefore have equal responsibility for the outcome of our marriage and our own lives so if things go well, I will stand before God and accept my part of the credit and if things go poorly, I will accept my share of the blame.
Cabinetman's avatar

Cabinetman · 573 weeks ago

Blake,
You are allowed your worldview and those who believe in the Bible and the husband/wife roles taught there are allowed to ours. We have two very different belief systems and world views so it's not likely that as long as you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God you will ever agree on this. We do not believe the Bible was written my mortal men only, but by God's inspiration. And yes there are many controversal teachings in it by today's standards but you are trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole. We believe drastically different things about the world, about life and about marriage then you so why is it a surprise that the teaching on such issues is way different than the way you and your wife live out yours? Why do you feel a need to be here if your mind is already made up on such issues? I know my mind is made up also as I know for my wife and I were are very certain of what the Bible teaches and it would be almost impossible to change our minds on it. And we are extremely happy and content. It's okay to disagree on something, even more so when you outright have different belief systems. I'm not sure why we have to be so contentious with one another. Those that are following what Ken and Lori are teaching are CHOOSING to do so because they believe the Bible agrees with them on the issue. If you are not choosing to do so you are allowed that right and no one is forcing you to do so. I'm certainly not interested in writing laws that say you have to believe as we believe. God and our country have given us freedom to live out our lives as we see fit, so we can look at ourselves in the mirror each morning and for us that believe like this so we can give account one day.

Are you okay with that scenario?
Blake,
I am not opposed to you as one who does not believe in the authority of God's Word creating whatever marriage you desire with your spouse. Indeed if mere mortal men where not truly inspired by the Spirit of God in what they wrote, then I have no leg to stand upon in defense of a BIblical marriage.

But you must know that I believe significantly differently then you on the subject of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the writing of God's Word and the application of God's Word to all generations, not simply the one in which it was written.

So I don't get your real premise. Are you telling me and all who believe in the authority of God's Word to simply stop believing and do things your way because it is efficient, or because it works for you? I am sorry my friend if there is some confusion here, but I and most who read this blog do so precisely because we what to explore what God has to say ion the subject of marriage, family and life. Not what you have discovered works well for you.

When you say, "I will accept my share of the blame" that is a an acknowledgement that you are providing some form of leadership in your marriage... but why not accept all of the blame? You are choosing this path, and it may very well be the right path for you even if you are a Believer. We are not here to force anyone to believe as we teach or believe. We are here to have a discussion of what God's Word, written many centuries ago as to say about life and godliness.

This is a Bible blog, so to come on here and tell us you do it better because you choose not to accept the Bible as authoritative? How am I supposed to respond to that? Teach your terrific marriage to all who will listen. That is great for you, but it will not work for those of us who are called by God to a higher standard of obedience to Christ Jesus.

Accepting differing roles while being equals goes on in many forms of business, the church, and parenting, etc. Why can't it happen in a Biblical marriage when both spouses decide willingly to do things God's ways?
A few questions:

1. If wives are to submit to even non-Christian husbands, does that really reflect GOD'S ideal model (since the non-Christian husband could be likely to lead in a different direction)? Wouldn't it have reflected the existing order of things in the Roman empire, so that husbands in that society wouldn't have been afraid of having wives convert to Christianity?

2. The curse of the husband ruling over the wife was giving at the same point that the curse of death was given. Do you believe that death will cease to exist in the End Times? If so, will this curse also disappear for those who are granted eternal life?

3. Why don't you think that it's not possible to have a marriage with mutual submission - basically, where each spouse is 100% for the other - without the order of the husband as the head? Is it possible that you may not have seen it in practice, and therefore can't fully understand how it works?
4 replies · active 572 weeks ago
Cabinetman's avatar

Cabinetman · 573 weeks ago

Cynthia,
I believe what I believe about the issue because the Bible teaches it. Obviously there are many kinds of marriages "that work", even many that are happy. But our goal is neither for it to work or be happy (although we are thankful to have both), but for it to glorify God and line up with His Word. And yes, there will be no curse in heaven. Neither death nor marriage curse.

Yes, the Bible teaches for believing wives to submit to unbelieving husbands because through this he might be saved.

Can I ask why you continue every week to push egalitarian marriage. The whole world is teaching it. Do you feel a calling to negate it even to those who choose to live out marriage this way because they believe the Bible teaches it?

I guess what I am asking Cynthia, is what are your motives?

Can I surmise you think the teaching is dangerous? or unbiblical? I don't know how to argue with the unbiblical thing. The bible is pretty clear on it. So it comes down to either believing what the Bible says or not, right?

On the dangerous thing, any marriage is dangerous in the hands of the wrong man or woman. I would love to pull the stats (if it were possible) but I can almost guarantuee that biblical marriages don't have a higher abuse rate, but lower. Of course abuse happens in what I call "biblical marriages" also. It's sad and it's wrong and it shouldn't happen but if we are being honest it wasn't truly a biblical marriage.

Cynthia, if you believe that egalitarian marriages are the way it should be done just state it clearly. Realize that those of us that take these parts of scripture literally will never agree with you and I think you know that so you are just here to be a thorn. I will agree that egalitarian marriages work for some (many?), but I will not agree that they are biblical. I will agree that abuse happens in a biblical marriage but I won't agree that they were actually living out a biblical marriage. A husband is never to abuse a wife (or a wife a husband but my feelings are you aren't too concerned about this half of it). It's not a biblical marriage if he does.

I do understand that what constitues abuse differs from person to person, from belief system to belief system from government to government. I imagine this is where much of the issues come up. I don't know how to overcome that. I think each couple, church, town, state and country have to decide and maybe that is what you are trying to do is push the envelope closer to what you consider right.

For the record I don't think anyone should ever be assaulted, bruised, threatened, hit, kicked, slapped, bullied, raped, denied sex for long periods of time, called names, screamed at repeatedly (yelling is going to happen in a marriage now and again), manipulated or have their spirit crushed. I tried to cover everything but I'm sure I missed a lot...sorry for those things I missed. But I do not believe headship and submission is abuse. Far from it. I husband who believes in headship is willing to die for his wife and will do so daily. Yes there will be times he asks difficult things of her and things that she might not be comfortable with but there will be many more times he does difficult things for her and do things he is not comfortable with for her.

I would just love to her exactly where you stand. Put your beliefs and motives on display please. Would you do that?
Hi Cynthia!
1. I would suggest that there is more to the story of a husband's role than just order, but Paul refers to such order again when he writes:

"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression (I Tim 2:12-14),

Paul's reasoning does not appear to me to appeal to the cultural times but back to the beginning of things and God's design... His order.

2. We do not know for sure if the words "he will rule over you" refer to a curse, or the order God designs. It certainly is within the context of the curse, but my thinking is that such order and headship would have also been a part of the natural design apart from sin.

If the natural order of things in the Godhead is that the Father and Son are both of the very nature of One God, yet the Son voluntarily submits to the will of the Father, why would not marriage be God's visible illustration of His relationship? Oneness, equality of nature and personhood, yet the Son's clear display of submission and following the will of the Father.

"Father, if it be thy will take this cup from me." Yet the Father chose differently and the Son willingly followed. How is this so much different than a marriage should look like?

3. I see what is called mutual submission all the time. I had a godly elder recently who told me he believes in mutual submission and that it has been a terrific model for his marriage relationship for over 30 years. I asked him one question:

"What would your marriage look like if you had married someone with your personality?"

His response was an honest one: "Oh, we would be fighting all the time."

So the concept of mutual submission, which by the way is impossible with the Greek word "hupotasso," (which means to "be subject to" as in military order), is a great ideal to aspire to in a Christian marriage. It can work, so long as it works.

Now tell me what that looks like when two godly spouses cannot agree on something. Generally the decision gets made, which is to keep the status quo. No decision is a decision, so the one who wants to not decide actually is the winner of the decision making process in a mutual submission marriage.

Here would be my question to you. How can God tell a husband that he is the head of his wife and family, yet he is impotent to make any final decisions? Trust me, he can still be a great husband, but my wife and I could have had a much better marriage for many more of our early years if my wife had been taught Biblical submission and not a mutual submission model.

No system of marriage is going to be perfect, so why not go with the one God clearly outlines for those who desire to follow Him? Where is the harm? My wife and I would say that a Biblical marriage is way better than mutual submission model. It is close to the latter, but in some small and powerful ways it may right things the way God had originally designed before the fall:

"For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve." This argument by Paul stands on its own without the fall. Why didn't God create Adam and Eve simultaneously out of the same lump of clay if he had intended there be no order of things? Why did God create a patriarchal society when he established Israel when he could have easily created mutual submission from the beginning of things if that was his intent and design?

Why God does things is not as important to me as the fact that He did do it this way and now asks me and my family to obey Him. You and your family and all others are free to live out the marriages you believe God has called you to. We are not here to twist any arms, just to explain what we see is the clear teaching if God's Word on the subject of marriage and family life. Other fine Christians will disagree, and we are good with that, and appreciate the discussions to help hone us all, and our Biblical thinking.
Thanks for the response. I know that we have different interpretations of Genesis, so this clarifies your reasons for your interpretation a bit more.

As for what it looks like when mutually submissive spouses disagree:

1. Both spouses agree to seriously discuss the issue and be open-minded.
2. They do not see it as a power struggle, so it's not about "winning". It's about finding a solution that meets the needs of the family.
3. They discuss the issue, brainstorm possible solutions, allow each person to give their input without putting down their position, evaluate the possible solutions, get creative, and come to a decision.
Hi Cynthia, all you write sounds very Christian and terrific. but really what matters is not the efficiency or effectiveness of the marriage model, but instead what does God's Word design for a marriage. It is here where we have two differing points of view, and I honor all who choose a mutual submission model. I simply believe the Biblical model goes further and allows a wife to explore coming under the loving protection of a husband, instead of having to insure that she gets her ways and needs met on her own.

I can tell you that since my wife began honoring me as the "head" of our family we have been able to cut the arguing and disagreement down to next to nothing, I think I am even more willing to give in to what she wants and desires. I am far more protective of her needs than when we tried to constantly meet in the middle through discussion and compromise. I also feel significantly closer and warmer to her which may be the real reason God designs the husband as "head" because it helps create oneness. Being closer to one mind together may have that effect. "The two shall become one."
Lori and Ken,

Truly humility is the key. A good question to moment-by-momentary-moment ask myself is this: Kelley, are you stuck {again} in your perspective? Every time I am stuck in my own perspective, the Light of God's Word was disallowed to shine into my heart.

My good husband and I are reading R. T. Kendall's (italics) The Power of Humility together each evening. It has been eating our lunch. To realize that for, if not all, nearly every conflict possesses a root of pride. Pride can never be selfless, other-giving or humble. Slap dab in the middle of the word is "I."

Thank you for piercing our hearts with beautiful, biblical Truth again today, folks. May I ADAPT myself to the Word of God, submitted with love and reverence to the glory of God.

Help me, Lord!
Kelley~
I finished the first paragraph of this post and thought this sounds like Ken!! shows I have been reading here for a while now :)

thank you for your words today Ken, I hope that Lori is ok and just wanted you to write this post.

Still praying for her and her health each day
1 reply · active 573 weeks ago
Thanks Miriam,

Yes, Lori is doing better, but from time t time we come up with a topic that she thinks I should write about. Her posts tend to be much more brief than mine :).
Liz Bernard's avatar

Liz Bernard · 572 weeks ago

My husband will tell you that of the two of us, I am the more "experienced" one, if you will. But each time I try to step outside of God's order and think that I can just charge through life instead of letting my husband have the final say, I am ALWAYS (though not immediately) met with some pretty unpleasant consequences.

And this is coming from someone who vowed she would NEVER "submit" to a man. Turns out that I was viewing submission from the selfish, power-hungry worldview and not the loving, caring biblical viewpoint.

Thanks for another great post!
1 reply · active 572 weeks ago
Thanks Liz,

We get beat up pretty bad by many others for what we clearly see in the scriptures. We are not asking everyone to believe what we believe, only to come to their own conclusions. There may be a lot more to a husband's headship than just getting decisions right.

I have had a few of the unpleasant consequences myself when I go outside of God's will, God usually makes it pretty clear when He is the one helping to create the consequences. We do have a loving Father :).
Hi Ken and Lori

God's ways are always best, he made us and despite the worlds 'knowledge', his ways HAVE to be the way to follow when it comes to life!.
Blessings
Helen UK
There are a number of scenarios I can think of that a Biblical marriage may move beyond mutually submissive,

1. When the couple discusses an issue and never can agree on it. The decision then belongs to the one who wants the status quo.

2. The wife who simply does not choose to go along with the husband's decision and blames her recalcitrance on the mutual submission model. "God wants us both to agree, so when are you going to agree with me, because I am never going to agree with you on this subject.”

3. The difficult wife who purposefully refuses her husband’s reasonable requests because she is upset with him over other past issues, or simply has a strong personality and wants things her way. She too points to mutual submission as her model and uses it to create impasses in the relationship.

Each of these women can believe they are following God’s design for marriage when in reality they may be undermining their husband’s leadership. Many Christian men in these cases tend to give up too easily and become submissive, allowing their wives to lead. And these wives often lead well, all the while falsely thinking they are in a marriage that God designed, and that their husbands are happy. Regardless of how happy the husband may be, he is not growing up into all that Christ has called him to be, or to reflect to his children as “head” of the family.

I guess it is like any model that if you have two willing souls who both want to work to the middle and compromise, who are looking out for the interest of the other, the mutual submission model certainly looks ideal. It is the way a Biblical marriage should function so much of the time in relationship to decision making, but it does not capture the Biblical model of a wife respecting her husband as “head.”

Would you not agree that our respect for Jesus as “head” of the church goes beyond our discussing things with him to find a mutual decision we can both feel good about?

How about with elders? Should church members keep elders discussing with them over issues until all members agree, or should the elders show some leadership after the discussions and make a final decision?

How much should an employer stall or not implement a decision because of mutual submission? “If as Christ is head of the church” implies mutual submission then certainly any Christian boss should accept this mutual model and run his business by consensus.

To interpret the “submit to one another’ phrase which opens Ephesians 5 and mutual submission is a big stretch in that Paul goes on to explain exactly what he means by “mutual submission” and it involves wives being submissive to husbands. To read that verse as a standalone phrase is fine, except when in the same passage certain relationships are singled out to have a more specific form of submission. To not read it this way is to render the specific submission commands as meaningless. Why write them at all and speak of headship?

In summary, any Christian couple aspiring to a mutually submissive marriage aspires to a good thing. It is an effective model when it works, but it gives few answers for 1, 2, 3 above. On the flip side, allowing a husband final say is not without its own issues and potential abuses of a domineering husband who wants control. And to these men I say they need to go back and “first act like a Christian” to your wife before making any decisions she is not comfortable with.

Most often the Biblical husband will defer the decision, or make the decision his wife wants, but there is a huge difference in that he still feels that he is respected as head of the family and had the privilege of leading the family forward. The couple is doing things according to God’s design and the wife can sense her husband’s love and protection for her instead of her having to always protect herself and her needs.

Lastly, we know that when we do things God’s ways, even those things that are hard to understand generally turn into blessing in this life and the next. I believe that any Christian couple who finds that a mutual submission model is a good thing, should experiment in moving to the next level of bonding and commitment by seeing what it looks like to honor the husband as “head” of the family unit.

If they can make the mutual submission model work, why not make the Biblical model work better? Unless of course the wife feels she needs to protect her own interests from her husband, and then all bets are off in any marriage model.
4 replies · active 572 weeks ago
I guess the difference is that I wouldn't call some of the situations that you describe "mutual submission". It's just 2 people who can't agree.

To my mind, mutual submission would mean that both husband and wife were open to a discussion about anything that was truly important to either of them.

I'll give a personal example. After seeing some beautiful ads, my husband suggested that we spend time in New Zealand after giving birth to our second child. I didn't say, "Travel around the world with a 3 yr old and a newborn, are you crazy?" I agreed to discuss it. We did research. We talked about what we could afford, whether he should work while we were there, where we should go and what the best timing would be. As we looked into it, it started to sound like an exciting idea. In the end, we figured out how to travel with a baby and 3 yr old without too much stress, and had a wonderful time. If, however, he had simply said, "I want to go, so as husband I've made the decision", I can't imagine that it would have worked out as well. Our parents thought we were nuts, and I can't imagine talking to them if I hadn't been fully supportive of the idea. I also imagine that it would have been much harder with the kids if I kept thinking to myself "this is crazy" instead of "sure we can do this, it'll be fun".
Cabinetman's avatar

Cabinetman · 572 weeks ago

Cynthia,
Is that how you think husband leadership works? I can't recall making a decision I did not ask my wife's thoughts on and discussing it with her and on a big one praying and discussing it some more. There's been times maybe when I've said "This is what's going to happen." But we've talked about and discussed it before. The kind of leadership Ken & I are talking about value immensely what our wives thougthts and feelings are and unless her thoughts or feelings go against scripture or I'm positive of the decision to be made (rare, very rare) I try to honor them.
Your example sounds more to me like a submissive model, because although your initial reaction was "NO WAY!!" you actually calmed down your reaction to make requests and explore what the trip would look like. It looks great and probably works great.

This is a big part of a Biblical marriage model, but the difference is that the husband and wife know that the husband has the privilege of making the final decision and if after much discussion you said, "No" and he said yes, you would go along with him joyfully and would have experienced a great trip because you honored your husband as your leader.

Husbands and leaders make mistakes, but most often a godly husband who leads can help take his wife to places she might never go, in many ways.... but beyond that there is a joy in knowing that God is honored in doing things His ways.

We do not fully understand the connections that come when a wife honors a husband as her leader. I know it makes me sense a much stronger connection with my wife when I see submission in action, and makes me want to please her more. Maybe that is missing in a mutual submission model? It certainly was from ours when we tried it for 22 year but maybe we were doing it wrong, or maybe you are much more submissive to your husband than you think?.
To be fair, it was my mother saying "NO WAY", not me. I actually like to travel, although the idea of planning this trip was a bit daunting. So, I never said no to the trip, but I'd say that I was pushing my comfort zone a bit to consider it.

So, our model our marriage - whatever you want to call it - is that we're willing to be open-minded, even if others think we are crazy, and not automatically shoot down a suggestion.

The other part, though, is that if my answer had been "no" after discussion, then that would have ended it. He's not the type that would have insisted, and I can't picture myself going along with it if I had already said no. I don't say no casually if I don't mean it. When I said yes to the trip, I was committing to traveling for 24 hours straight with a 3 yr old and a newborn, only 8 weeks after a c-section. If I didn't think that the kids or I could handle it, I would have said something and my husband would have respected that limit.

It really was a great trip, and a big part of that was that we were on the same page. [It also helped that our girls were perfect for this trip, because many kids wouldn't have done well. They weren't on a strict schedule, they both like being around us all the time and the little one loved to be carried in a soft carrier.]

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