Sin and
selfishness take on many forms, but what is most confusing to many godly
husbands is how to best deal with the antics and emotions of a difficult wife.
Men are not built to see through the many ways a woman can act to stay on top
of the relationship where she can play him like a fiddle. One of the easiest
ways for a husband to know if he is being played is to count how many times he
has to go and apologize to his wife to get the relationship back in order ever week. It
seems that for the first twenty years of my marriage {Ken speaking here}, saying “I’m sorry” was
the only way to try to keep harmony and peace and to move things forward; or
at least to get communications and sex back on track.
Yes, men are really out of their league when it comes to dealing with a wife who chooses not to be submissive. If she wants to make him look like the bad guy, make him impotent to lead, or just to keep him always guessing so that she can stay in control, most men will have no answers. Why? Because there are no good answers to rebellion and disobedience with an unruly wife, or husband. At some point if change is going to take place, the one who is being difficult must come to the realization that he/she needs help, and become willing to listen to their spouse, or a counselor, trusting that even though they cannot see their own behavior clearly, the one who loves them most can.
The greatest help that can be given a difficult wife is to get her in regular sessions with an older godly woman who knows how to mentor wives. The problem with this is that too few such mentors exist, especially those who know how to deal with insidious rebellion that can be found in some women. The Christian world needs many more Loris on the local church level who are willing to tackle the tougher Christian rebellious wives and tell them the truth. To get them out of their “it’s all about me” mindset and help them focus on being obedient to God’s Word and to respect and submit to their husbands.
Herein lies one of the biggest problems in many Christian marriages. Many wives will go to their Bible studies and “share” about how bad their husbands are and how difficult their relationship, and other wives will sympathize with them, give them unbiblical counsel, and agree with them that their husbands are not loving them right. The group wants to vote to decide if the husband should let his wife have drawers in the kid’s closet instead of baskets. After all, who wants the socks and the underwear to be mixed up! The wife goes home convinced she is married to a difficult or unloving man, never once being coached that God already has already given her the answers, and it is not found in the opinion of her Christian friends as to what is right or wrong on the small issues of life, but in the exact truth of God’s Word.
I have personally heard from far too many Christian husbands how frustrated they are with a wife who can’t discipline herself enough to get some of the basics of the home, family and marriage completed in any normal way, yet the wife wants nothing to do with their husband’s attempts at correcting a bad situation. The husband can beg a wife to please try to have the house picked up and dishes done by the time he gets home, yet she is just far too busy to be able to get these basics of life completed. In her mind, he just does not understand and now she has her girlfriends agreeing with her, so he must be a jerk. After all, how can ten women with half the facts not come up with the right answers?
If he questions her lack of discipline, her inability to get to the gym, to have a home cooked meal on the table every evening, or have the laundry done once a week, she calls him not understanding or unloving. And when the claws come out and tears start, the husband is put back into his corner as the “unloving jerk who is way too picky and demanding!”
I am curious what the readers of this blog would counsel a husband to do when he is married to just such a wife. Accept as a premise that she lacks any modicum of self-discipline; she is a stay at home Mom with plenty of time spent relaxing and being online each day. Assume that she is a Christian, but no one at church knows that she regularly scolds her husband for the littlest of things, all the while ignoring his requests to be more disciplined. Maybe she even scoffs at the idea that her laid back and wonderful husband would ever do much more than just apologize regularly as he has allowed her to keep living in her sin for many years without doing much about it. After all, is this not what Christ would do to show love to His church? He gets the dishes done, makes sure the kids are doing their home and school work, and often helps to get breakfast and dinner on the table and dishes cleaned, because Mom is busy online and doing her own thing. After all, she really is not a high energy person, unlike her energetic husband, so he needs to be sensitive to her needs for down time.
Super husband is trying to do it all to save the day, but for how long and at what cost to his family and marriage? Is there a point in time that if a Christian wife cannot get the basics of family and marriage accomplished that a husband should stop enabling her, stop apologizing, and start demanding accountability? And in today’s world, how is that accomplished? Some of the husbands I talk to would like to have answers short of “love your wife” which is another 10 year sentence of the same nonsense and sin pattern evident to all in the family, except his wife. She is either blind as a bat, or she is playing him like a fiddle. She gives him just enough fun, enjoyment, hope and sex to keep him baited, but has no intention of becoming a submissive wife who will allow him to take his God ordained place as her leader. Or will she? Lord knows he never really has tried to really lead because he wants to keep the peace and harmony in the marriage and fears her volatile reactions.
So I guess he will just go apologize one more time as he prays about it and seeks one more counselor who has few answers. There is so very little that a Christian husband can do with such a wife that will not come across to her friends and family as being harsh or unloving. The counselor is out because she refuses to go, so maybe all that is left is the threat of separation? Should he use the final big stick of separation that all husbands and wives have to get some movement towards normalcy? Or is the Bible against that? How impotent is the Christian husband when it comes to a difficult and rebellious wife? Especially one who believes all the lies she is telling herself, and others, to excuse her undisciplined behavior? I am sure she can get her Bible Study group to believe her because they only get her side of the truth, but for her husband, he is clear now that he is not the problem, but he is at a loss to know a godly solution beyond love and prayer. Does one exist? Does love demand that he seek his wife's best interest in training his rebellious wife in self discipline, even if she cannot see how this is indeed true love in meeting her needs?
And yet the solution is so clear that she is to allow her husband to lead her out of her sin and into the glorious redemption as a child of God; one who pleases her God by being respectful and submissive to her husband; to accept accountability and discipline so that she can learn to be disciplined; to replace her many lies with the truth of God’s Word. Now, if she will just prayerfully listen to her husband or another godly woman, so that she can see that the reason her life is a mess is because she may already be under the discipline of the Lord. If one’s Christian life is not filled with blessings and the fruit of salvation, look in the mirror by asking your spouse what might be going wrong so that you can be that “saint” and “new creature in Christ” that you are meant to be.
All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
Hebrews 12:11
Shanon · 537 weeks ago
Cynthia · 537 weeks ago
1. Don't do knee-jerk apologies.
Only apologize if you genuinely feel that you have done something wrong, and sincerely feel remorse.
If you don't feel that way, don't apologize just to get out of having a confrontation. You need to have the courage to have a real conversation about why she feels that you did something wrong, and whether she is being reasonable. If someone is unreasonable (like expecting to control a grown man's diet), say so. Just make sure to listen to her first before jumping in, because sometimes, there could have been a misunderstanding, or you may not have realized that something was hurtful.
2. Don't nag
As Lori's pointed out many times, husbands hate being nagged and it doesn't help! Wives feel the same way. Nagging feels like an attack, and it destroys the relationship. It also doesn't motivate anyone to do better, and just causes resentment.
3. Get to the heart of the matter
It's not about the dishes.
It's about feeling like you have a true partner in life, someone who loves you and respects you enough to share the burden instead of seeking to heap it all on you. Someone who wants to work with you, instead of competing with you.
Very early on in our relationship, my husband stopped some of my bad habits by simply asking, from the heart, "if you love me, why would you want to do that?" This needs to be part of a quiet, private, serious conversation, not part of an argument. Stay quiet while she thinks about it, because she needs to realize, deep down, that helping out and sharing the burden is a concrete way for her to show that she loves and respects you and is committed to you.
4. Concrete action plan
Once she is on board with wanting to help more, and once she knows that she has your love and support, you can work together on an action plan.
I'm a big fan of making a master schedule, showing what everyone is doing 24/7. Start with the existing schedule. Maybe it will show that she does more than you realized, or maybe it will show that she's wasting a lot of time and you are working constantly. Discuss goals and things that need to change. Things need to be scheduled, or they won't happen. Talk it through, and be realistic.
Maria · 537 weeks ago
HappyHomemaker · 537 weeks ago
Anonymous · 537 weeks ago
That's a great challenge. Not easy to answer.
Does anyone remember that movie, Far and Away with Tom Cruise/Nicole Kidman? Kidman's character's mother was overbearing and controlling. The husband/father secretly drank. In one scene he snuck a drink from a hidden flask in the bookcase. Without stirring from her seat and work, she asked, "Do you honestly think you are fooling me, Daniel?" Shocked and embarrassed, he said, "Would you prefer I proclaim my independence and drink out in the open?" Still seated, she said, "No, I like the system we've got."
Later in the film, their Ireland home is totally destroyed and they decide to embark on a scary journey to America and settle there. Circumstances required a strong leader, of which her husband was one. The last scene of them in the movie is when they claimed their American land together. She still fussed, saying, "We don't really need all of this. It's scary out here, Daniel!" He firmly said, "Aw, we'll do fine. Pretend we're starting out in life, instead of ending up." After she followed his leadership and they claimed their land, he was so happy and hugged her. She smiled peacefully under his arm.
In today's culture, men die before their leadership is necessary. Lies from feminist agendas say men aren't necessary to survive, gov't will care for you better than he can, and even when faced with serious illness, organizations and groups dedicated to causes offer support and diminish a husband's emotional care. Women have many more safety nets, so to speak, and while they suffer without their husband's emotional care, they go on vacations and dinners out after local sports and entertainment events. They buy clothing and things to distract them from their pain. They don't face their home's total destruction with no where to turn except their wise husbands.
Men die today after long years lived hoping for something better, but as I understand you wrote, with no real answers as to how to get there.
Cynthia · 537 weeks ago
Group discussions about marriage problems are simply inappropriate.
Shelley · 537 weeks ago
Basically to reiterate, the lines on how to love and respect your spouse seem pretty clear to me when both partners have traditional rolls, but a little more complicated when those roles aren't a factor.
laura · 537 weeks ago
1. How do we know you aren't in the same position as the study group? As in you only here half the story.
2. Remember, we aren't supposed to happy. We are supposed to be holy. If he is obeying God's word, he is doing the right thing. Can he be content with that?
3. You have given us the big picture. But perhaps the answer is in the details. I mean, I think the kids closet thing is absurd. Both need to not sweat the small stuff. How about they divide areas up? Say she is responsible for the home and he does yardwork? But details ok please. How many kids to they have,? Are any special needs? A homeschooling mother of 5 probably can't do the gym 4 days a week.
4. Has it asked her specifically what the time management problem is? Again, we got a big picture but no details.
5. Could he suggest scheduling?
No, I don't think separation is wrong. As long as neither one marries someone else.
Tom · 537 weeks ago
Tom · 537 weeks ago
Cynthia Swenson · 537 weeks ago
Patt · 537 weeks ago
Initially I would advise him to stop using the word “undisciplined.” Nothing in this highly unflattering character sketch supports the idea that the wife lacks self-discipline. He seems to base this assumption on the basis that her priorities seem different from his, and her time management choices do not always result in him getting things the way he wants them.
Just because a man can make a chore list and call it “basic” and “normal” does not mean that he and his wife have the same ideas of what is important and how to accomplish it. It also does not mean that he is right and she is wrong, or vice-versa. It’s just a difference of opinion, which can usually be worked out.
In support of the idea that the wife is “undisciplined” we see that she is a stay at home mom who has ‘plenty of time spent relaxing and being online every day’. Now, I’d like to look at that mathematically. Starting with the average day with kids, who are awake approximately from 6am to 8pm most days. We may compare this to a full time job at 40 hours per week, or perhaps to a very demanding and disciplined job – say, 65 working hours per week. That means that within her 14 hour day, one would expect a well disciplined mom to work hard for 9 hour days, and relax for 5 hours per day. This might resemble a split shift, with a nice long break in the middle of the day, or perhaps it would look more like having 30 minutes off every hour or two. A highly disciplined mom organizes her time – and very few of them ‘work’ as little as 9 of their 14 hour days. Some work nearer to 13 out of 14 hours per day, or more still if they do some chores after the kids go to bed in the evenings. 13 hours per day would still leave her an hour per day to relax or amuse herself, yet it stands as a 91 hour work-week. So, perhaps this husband means that his wife relaxes for more than 5 hours per day, or even that she *only* works 8 hours per day, relaxing for 6 – meaning she is *only* as disciplined as any person with basic a full time job. That’s not “undisciplined” unless every full-time worker in the world is “undisciplined.”
To be accurately describing a woman as someone who ‘lacks any modicum of self-discipline’ in any truthful way, he would have to be implying that she works less than, maybe 4 hours per day, and relaxes for the remaining 10 hours. This is the equivalent of a part-time job, and parenting demands more than that. (I don’t think that’s the case -- since even basic parenting *demands* more than that.) Therefore I think it makes perfect sense for her to ‘ignore his requests to be more disciplined.’
Further the words, rebellious, unruly, and, finally, the characterization of her behaviour as sin – all are completely inaccurate according to the Bible. (Unless there are more issues that aren’t being clearly laid out.) It is *not* a sin to choose not to do housework – even if the husband is making specific requests to tell her what he wants. The false accusation is a part of the poison in this marriage.
The husband’s disappointment and frustration are genuine, but they are also childish. Nobody gets what they want all the time. Godly adults do not denigrate their relationships and compromise their values because they aren’t receiving supper and laundry on the schedule that they ask for.
I’d advise him to either abandon the archaic idea that husbands have no role in housework, or, on the other hand, embrace the archaic notion and purchase household help (as almost all middle and upper class families tended to do: right up to the 1970’s.)
Demanding accountability for unrealistic expectations is going to poison the marriage that he should be nurturing – even if he doesn’t much care for his wife or her conduct, an intact family is vastly superior for the sake of his children. It is his duty to attempt to maintain the marital bond well, or at least not to unduly tax the bond over the trivialities of chores. This is not a ‘sentence to another 10 years of nonsense.’ It is a ‘sentence’ to probably another 30 to 60 years of living like a normal person, who doesn’t always get what he wants, and needs to make habitual contributions to housework for the house that he lives in.
However, you did mention that the hypothetical wife “scolds” her husband. This is a genuine flaw, and it should not go unnoticed even though it is camouflaged among false accusations. For scolding, I’d advise him to respond in a consistent and businesslike manner with a phrase such as, “I don’t like to be spoken to like that. You can try a more friendly way of making your point, or we can talk later. I don’t want to continue this conversation this way, right now.” And then step away, or actively change the topic. A few dozen repetitions should result in a shift in her habit.
Desiree · 537 weeks ago
If the Lord ever brings me to your mind please pray for me. Though I try...rebellion is not an easy thing to overcome.
Anna Mary · 537 weeks ago
anonymous · 537 weeks ago
Tom · 537 weeks ago
Wimpy husbands. Rebellious wives.
Men should never ever rule with the iron fist ever. A happy christian home is not a dictatorship; it is acting accordingly with Christian values and when a spouse and even could be the man is not behaving in a way that is godly then he or she should be called out in it. Language in front if children etc.
i do not think Ken and Lori are in anyway attempting to create an environment of chat that slams woman and disrespects them!! Yes the keeper of the home is more than a full time job. It never ends. Its not 9-5. Its 24/7 and a husband should never ever have unrealistic expectations of his wife because that only leads to disappointment and possible resentment.
I do not have this whole thing figured out and never will but to think that my wife should show me the respect and obey the word of God by respecting the authority he has bestowed upon me as spiritual leader of my family. If she is to submit to me in everything then it is my duty to love her as Christ loved the church. Living as a christian is harder than before i became a believer. But this is Lori's blog and its based on helping build woman into godly woman.
Tom · 537 weeks ago
Jo · 537 weeks ago
Tom · 537 weeks ago
Megan · 537 weeks ago
Im not sure how to answer that one but great point! I know a domineering woman who as a result of her behaviour has had all 6 kids taken away by cps, is headed for a divorce and bankruptcy, and lost her house and will be living out of her car. She still denies any wrongdoing and thinks she is being persecuted. She has a warped view of christianity. And her soon to be ex husband is still saying 'yes dear'. So sad. But this post has me examining myself too.
Curious husband · 537 weeks ago
Becky · 537 weeks ago
HappyMama · 537 weeks ago
Honestly, a lot of women just have never learned how to do the basics or how to manage their time well. Reading the first two chapters of this book alone would be like getting great wisdom from an older Titus 2 homemaker on how to do the basics, so your house doesn't fall apart.
For example, since I started reading this book- I have been working on laundry. My old default was that I was good at keeping the laundry washed, but it sat in baskets in the laundry room in the basement and people in my house were always having to dig for clean clothes. Now with minimum maintenance I have decided I will wash one full load of laundry a day, and put one full load of laundry a way a day, which works perfect for our family size. (So for example, I find it hard to wash, dry and put away the same of load of laundry away, so what I do is wash and dry one load and the next day put that load away. So I wash and dry one new load of clothes a day and put yesterdays dry load away). Now almost all of our clothes are now put away clean. Laundry seriously takes me 10 minutes a day tops- and instead of our laundry default mode being clean but not put away. It is that almost all of our clothes are clean and put away. I actually feel like I spend less time on laundry. 10 minutes a day. It is so easy, but it took learning a whole new minimum maintenance system to keep myself disciplined and to learn better work habits. Honestly, a lot of homemaking is just learning better habits.
If you are a homemaker and you want to manage your house well, but are struggling- then read this book, especially the first few chapters. If you are a husband, who has a homemaker wife, then buy this book for her. Read it yourself (especially the first few chapters) and help encourage her to do the daily minimum maintenance to keep your house up. I don't think that is too much to ask if you are working full time and she is home full time. However, I would take an encouraging approach vs. an attack approach.
Shanon · 537 weeks ago
Cynthia · 537 weeks ago
I think that language is also part of the issue here.
You and Patt had a discussion upthread about facts. I would say that calling someone "completely undisciplined" is a conclusion. Facts would be things like "spends an average of 6 hours per day on the internet" or "house in chaos despite lack of other duties".
This may sound like nit-picking, but there is a point to this.
The words we use shape how we feel about a situation. Certain words, when they are sticking a negative label on someone, are also likely to be seen as an attack. Since you are asking for advice for men who wish to save their marriages, I would ditch language which is not helpful and is just inflammatory.
Here's an example I've use here before, when giving advice to wives upset over specific things:
I could say "my husband is an unconsiderate slob! He lets the floor get soaking wet when he showers, and then just dumps wet towels on the floor and expects me to clean up his mess!"
Or, I could say, "My busy husband, who got up early to workout with me at the gym, who will spend a long day giving his best care to patients and saving lives, and who will rush home from work in time to coach our son's hockey, was in such a hurray that some water got on the floor of the bathroom and the towel is on the floor. With everything he does, picking it up is the least that I can do."
In both examples, the basic fact is the same. The floor is wet, and the towel is on the floor. The perspective and attitude, though, are entirely different.
If these men chose to marry these wives, and if they still want to save their marriages, I have to assume that these women are more than the sum of their flaws. I'm not suggesting that the flaws don't exist - just that it's pretty rare to find someone who is utterly bad with no good qualities.
If a conversation begins with "you're so selfish, why don't you ever do anything all day?", it's not going to end well. That sounds like an attack, and when someone feels like they are under attack, they fight back.