Friday, January 17, 2014

Husbands Are Powerless Leaders???


For 22 years I blasphemed the Word of God.  I disrespected, dishonored, and disobeyed my husband. He was raised by a mother who never argued with his father and showed him honor, respect and love.  Ken had no clue what to do with me, except to try to win me over by trying to please me.

Most of you think Ken should have simply loved me, which is what he did.  But now I wonder? Would I have not been better off if Ken had showed me love by sitting me down and explaining to me the gravity of my sin?  If instead of giving in to my strong will, maybe he should have called on me to submit and obey?

Well, now having wasted 22 of the best years of our lives together, I wish Ken would have done whatever it took, in love, to bring me to my senses.  I wish his view of love would have told me that I must no longer walk in sin and blaspheme the Word of God.  I wonder if Ken should not have set standards of behavior for me, and if I did not meet them, or at least try to meet them , should he have tried to use consequences to discipline me for my own VERY good?

What kind of discipline could he have chosen that might have gotten my attention and made me realize that our marriage was to be husband led, and not led by a wife’s fluctuating emotions and desires?  He could have said that every time I got into an argumentative mood with him, I would have to give him a twenty minute massage.  Perhaps every time I showed disrespect to him, I had to do all the housework that week without his help.  Every time I disobeyed him, he could have figured out some creative discipline that fit the crime that would get my attention and make me at least think twice.

Ken works with some fine Christian men who are being consistently badgered by their "godly" wives. From the comments on the post yesterday, many of you think a husband should do nothing but love their wife when she is difficult and disobedient.  

Well, my marriage is proof of what happens when a husband loves a wife and waits patiently for her to change and to come to grips with God’s calling on her life and marriage.  Yes, the end results are wonderful, and we now have a great marriage, but all the pain I caused Ken and our marriage can never be erased, nor can those years of strife be remade into years of joy and harmony. Gone, finished, over.

When a part of life is wasted it can never be remade, and that is why I work tirelessly “to teach the younger women” so that they will not fall into the same trap of Satan from which I have been redeemed.

   Wives are to win their disobedient husbands without a word, but this admonition is not given to husbands to win their wives. Why? Because husbands are to lead and to love their wives as Christ loves the Church.  Christ disciplines the church.  Read the book of Hebrews and tell me that Christ is not actively disciplining those who will not submit to and obey his will, precisely because he loves us so much! 

Many men are married to rebellious wives. Are these godly heads of the home supposed to stand by powerlessly and allow their wives to manipulate them and control them day after day?

No, husbands can't use a "rod" on their wives.  That is specifically used for children by parents according to many verses in Proverbs, but I definitely believe a loving husband should have some power to try and stop his "godly" wife from blaspheming the Word of God.

Apparently many do not take the sin of an unsubmissive wife very seriously, like Sunshine Mary's husband did when he gave her modest discipline by not buying her a new dishwasher when she disobeyed him.  He wanted to nip her disobedience in the bud or at least show her that he was not going to be a pushover.  

Was it drastic?  No. He did not yell, scream, or pout, he just handed out the consequences. It wasn't about the dishwasher.  It was about showing leadership and holding his wife accountable for what she said she believes in:  The Word of God and submission to her husband.

Ephesians 5:25-27 states, Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her: that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless.

If it is Christ’s job to sanctify the church and make her holy, do you not think Christ does whatever he needs to in order to accomplish His will?  He sure does and He is first and foremost loving, but He also disciplines us by allowing us to suffer the consequences of our sins and much more.

A loving leader wants his wife to walk in holiness and may use some creative or firm leadership to do that.  So long as he is loving in what he does and his motives are right, I believe that according to these verses, this is part of the role of husband as leader.

I know this goes against the sensibilities of the typical American couple, but just ponder what might happen when godly husbands who love and value their wives are willing to gently, firmly, and lovingly lead their wives and family.

If husbands are to be the leaders, they must be given the liberty to lead, as the Spirit leads them, with the only restraint to the leadership being the admonition, “Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church.” Aside from that admonition, stop telling your husband what he cannot do and instead go to him and challenge him to lead you. Because if you are anything like me, you need his loving leadership in your life to help you walk in holiness, as Christ sanctifies the Church.

***Ken and I wrote this post together! :)

Comments (62)

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I so agree. I have seen marriages in my own family- loving, Christian, generally happy marriages- that could have been made SO much stronger by a husband who took the uncomfortable steps of stepping up to his wife. I have seen loving husbands who loved their families so much they didn't want to face any conflict with them bow out of conflict with their wives, even letting their wives handle much of the discipline with their children. When this goes on for two or three decades, children are raised internalizing this example, and even though it is wrong, if their father decides to try to change and step up to his wife and adult children when appropriate and necessary, wives and children become less and less receptive to this because "you didn't engage for years and NOW you are trying to get in my business and tell me what to do?" I pray for a future husband who will respect me, yes, but I pray for a man who will love and respect me enough to STAND UP AND HOLD ME ACCOUNTABLE when I am wrong, and who will do the same for children.
2 replies · active 584 weeks ago
I have always been very up front about the fact that my husband doesn't tolerate disrespect and outrageously bad behavior from me. And I have often wondered if I was painting a terrible picture of what our relationship is like.

But the truth is that love that doesn't correct is not love, and I am and always have been very well loved by him.

So rather than the 22 years of craziness and rebellion Lori describes, I was only crazy and rebellious for about 5. Because it was made clear early on that he was not going to be cowed by me and just take it.

Rather than allow me to break him, he helped mold me into a true wife.

By the grace of God.
1 reply · active 584 weeks ago
Very nice response to yesterday's "debate" on your post. I was reading the comments and something that Ken said really resonated. It was about how sometimes we "punish" without realizing what we are doing. And I thought, "that is so true." It's not just with our spouse; it can be with any relationship. Great thought for everyday and thinking about our motivations for doing what we do.
4 replies · active 584 weeks ago
Oh Lori. You have no idea what an inspiration you are. I continue to read through the comments from yesterdays post and already feel tired! I don't know how you do it though I'm glad you do.
I hope this doesn't sound too judgmental but I am quite frankly surprised at the commenters that think they have a "perfect" marriage but will argue endlessly with a blogger they don't even know. That would make me wonder how defiant they are in other areas of their life as well. I hate discord (as does the Bible, "sowing discord among the brethern") and I couldn't imagine going on and on if I disagreed with a blogger- I suspect this may happen in their homes and work environments as well though I could absolutely be wrong. I am not including commenters who question or even disagree, but those who go on and on about it. It just seems, well, defiant, which is really the heart of the issue in your past few posts.

Once again, I agree with you in this post. I can't really think of a time my sweet husband has disciplined me though I know I have deserved it from time to time. I am glad now for his verbal correction and rebuke even though I deserve that more than he would ever give me. Discipline and rebuke are hard, but just like God does to his children, I am glad to receive it in the end.
2 replies · active 584 weeks ago
I loved his response also, Angela, and I am going to repost it here for others to see ~

To Amy and those who believe that a husband cannot discipline a wife, I would offer you some food for thought. Certainly the idea of a husband disciplining a wife is foreign to you, yet the irony is that your husband probably punishes you regularly. Most husbands and wives do it, or in my case did it. As soon as we do not like something our spouse is doing we punish with our words, moods, anger and snide remarks. We punish with our silence and with our withholding love and affection. In the average marriage, and even the Christian marriage, such punishments are given often and many times a day.

Yet, you so oppose discipline that is done in a loving way? If discipline is given to a wife it is in a controlled and loving manner. .. It is far more loving to delve out consequences than to punish with words and misdeeds. Would you not agree? Yet some of you prefer your methods of punishment over discipline?
1 reply · active 584 weeks ago
I really wish that my husband would have corrected me before he felt pushed to divorce me. Thankfully he changed his mind and made me very aware of my horrible sinful behavior. We are only 2 months into reconciliation and my submission to him, but the changes in our marriage are astounding. Praise God!!
1 reply · active 584 weeks ago
Lori I feel so sad that you feel you wasted 22 years of your married life - that is so sad!

However I feel that you are just rehashing what you have already said so many times before in the hope that we will all submit to you and Ken and agree with what you believe. Antony and I can never believe that it is Biblical for a Husband to discipline his wife; again I will say that in the church, it is God who disciplines His children, not Jesus; for Jesus is our Brother, NOT our Father. God is our Father and that means it is His job to discipline us! Jesus was the only begotten Son of God. That means He was God's first son, and then when Jesus died for us then when we believe in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God it is made possible for US to become the children of God. We become brothers and sister of Jesus! Now I don't know about your children but ours were never allowed to discipline each other; that was our job as their parents!

Hebrews 2:
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
3 replies · active 584 weeks ago
Very true!!
Now I don't know about your children but ours were never allowed to discipline each other; that was our job as their parents!

When our 19-year-old is babysitting our 5 and 7 year olds, she is absolutely allowed to take away a toy or send them to their rooms if need be in our absence.

They must be taught to respect appropriate authority.
4 replies · active 584 weeks ago
I am not commenting on the main "gist" of this post, but rather to point out that those 22 years were not "wasted". You still were one another spouse's, your children's parents and had a family unit. It may not have been the ideal but it was not "wasted". :)
1 reply · active 584 weeks ago
The amount of debate around the truth among fellow believers astonishes me. This goes back Genesis. From the first, Adam's fall came when he did not correct his wife and instead went passively along with her into sin. Controlled correction not only saves the husband, it saves the wife, the marriage and sets the tone for future generations.
1 reply · active 584 weeks ago
Interesting conversation you have going here Lori! I had an absent father & had no idea what loving discipline might look like from a man. Then I had two husbands who basically hated me...some of which I still don't know why....but Jesus did say He did not come to bring peace & a man's enemies would be his own family members. (Just read that in Matthew chapter 10). I tend to think of discipline as being love...people who really care try to address & correct the issues, instead of taking offense, being unforgiving, & leaving the relationship! Just remember, the idea behind Godly discipline is always love!!! Love & prayers, in Jesus, Cynthia
I think you both have ignored the Bible verse:
Mark 10:6-9 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’[a] 7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,[b] 8 and the two will become one flesh.’[c] So they are no longer two, but one flesh."
You seem to disect the one verse:
Ephes. 5:22 "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord."
But if you read on to the next paragraph,
Ephes. 5:28-32" In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[b] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."
It does NOT say the husband is to be a master and the wife a slave. It does NOT say to treat or discipline a wife like you would a child! You are one flesh---ONE!
If a husband loves his wife and they are ONE flesh, then if he 'disciplines' the wife, HE should share the discipline (punishment) too! God did make the husband master---GOD is master and BOTH as ONE flesh should submit to GOD alone!
If husband and wife are truly one body, like the Bible says, how can one part discipline another part---every part is equal!
But most importantly, Christians disagree--that is why there are so many church denominations. Thanking God that the point of whether or not we 'submit' to our husbands, or believe and live that 'husband and wife are one'---this will not keep us from spending eternity with Jesus.
6 replies · active 584 weeks ago
Karen,
Every Believer is called to discipline themselves, so it should not be a surprise when a husband disciplines himself, or leads his family with modest disciplinary actions.

The apostle Paul blows your interesting theory out of the water when he says: “but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.” (I Cor. 9:27) His words are actually stronger than discipline, in that he uses the word "to buffet" which is a boxing term meaning to beat and bruise.

The fact is that the two becoming one flesh does not mean that flesh does not have to discipline itself ... precisely because it is the flesh it MUST discipline itself. Paul says that the flesh wars against the Spirit and makes it clear that the Believer is to keep his/her/our flesh under control and self-discipline so that we might serve God and not be disqualified from ministry.

Your thoughts have actually triggered an interesting post Lori should write on self-discipline from the Bible’s perspective. And if she proves that God demands the believer discipline themselves, then your words will prove that husband should take the lead in disciplining both himself first, and then his wife, in a Christian marriage. That is what accountability is all about.
I can see there is not use trying to get you to see another person's point of view. You have just contradicted yourself---"if she proves that God demands the believer discipline themselves, then your words will prove that husband should take the lead in disciplining both himself first, and then his wife, in a Christian marriage. That is what accountability is all about." You just said discipline THEMSELVES and then you say that means the husband should discipline himself first and then his wife. And how did you get from when I said "everyone has to be accountable for himself before God" to a husband being the head of a marriage?? And when you say "The apostle Paul blows your interesting theory out of the water when he says: “but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.” (I Cor. 9:27)" That actually substantiates what I just said, that we are responsible for our own actions. Yes we are examples to others...so what is your point.
We are to examples yes but not responsible for what they decide. And do you really think what a husband did in yesterday's blog: "Sunshine Mary's husband told her not to put knives in the dishwasher since the dishwasher ruins good knives. She did anyways. When the dishwasher broke, he refused to buy her a new one so she would have to wash them by hand since she disobeyed him," is an good example for others to see Christ in us? Oh boy--he made his wife do dishes by hand because she didn't listen to him when she put the knives in the dishwasher. Oh I want to be a Christian because he disciplined (punished) his wife. A finer example would be for him to HELP her with the dishes in first place! Now THAT I see as a Christian example for others to follow.
Done arguing---we must agree to disagree I guess. I obviously am not changing your mind--(nor you, mine) especially when the subject gets changed all the time. All I'm saying is we are all responsible for our own behavior---NOT other's! We account to God for what WE do and the other person has to be accountable for themselves. We cannot 'cure' or 'fix' people--that is God's and the Holy Spirit's job.
God bless
5 replies · active 584 weeks ago
An interesting discussion but I would like to know who disciplines the husbands as this is all around the wives doing the wrong thing as if the husbands never do. I worked with a lady who's church thought her husband was wonderful, an upstanding Christian man. The fact was he was beating up his wife and emotionally abusing her. The church turned a blind eye and said "no divorce" when they found out, it couldn't be the husband fault. In the end she had to run away and leave everything behind. I am sure this is far more common that we would like to think. So back to my question - who is looking out for the wives who is doing the right thing (we aren't all crazy mis-behaving wives)/
4 replies · active 584 weeks ago
ken,
Um...you may want to reread Ephes. 5:25-28
" Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself."
The 'her' referred to here is the 'church'---not the wife. And then in verse 28 it talks about husbands loving their wives.
And about what you say, " I am saying that as husband and head, or leader, I have an extra responsibility to God to help my wife’s sanctification, yet my wife is not accountable for my sanctification. So complete individual responsibility that you advocate is not correct. Husbands are responsible for their wives, just as your head is responsible for your body."
I really don't get where you are coming from. It clearly says in the Bible multiple times that unless ONE (you) believes in Christ as Lord and Savior you will not enter into heaven. There is nothing in the Bible about not being totally accountable for your own beliefs regarding this matter. You say, "So complete individual responsibility that you advocate is not correct. Husbands are responsible for their wives, just as your head is responsible for your body." Well, in other words according to you, if she decides not to accept Jesus then YOU are responsible? And on Judgement Day what happens? "It was my husband's fault. He didn't lead me enough to YOU--not my fault." Sounds like the Adam and Eve story all over again. You must be using a different Bible and dictionary than I do since my books say 'sanctify' means to make holy or sacred. Only God can do that! So if you think your job is to help make your wife 'holy', you are equating yourself with God.
All I can say is good luck on Judgement Day if you don't think we are all responsible COMPLETELY for our decision to follow Christ.
I have gone to a protestant church for over 56 years (and visited many others) I read the Bible, took religion classes in college, and participate in Bible studies weekly so I do believe I know what I am talking about. Just curious...what church (or denomination) do you go to?
Good morning Karen :),

Just two responses: First, I have read and reread the Ephesians passage and what you may not see is the word "likewise” which means "in the same way or same manner." What does the likewise refer to? How Christ both loved AND sanctifies the Church.

Does it not stand to reason that if husbands are to "likewise like Christ" they too are to participate in the sanctification of their wife?

Secondly, I am not sure you are clearly differentiating between salvation, which is an individual choice and responsibility and "sanctification." Sanctification means to grow up into Christ Jesus. It is all about becoming like Christ and growing in holiness and our walk with Him.

The moment we believe in the Lord Jesus individually, we are justified by God, individually and we are sanctified by God immediately. Yes, God places us into the family of God, completely whole and “perfect in Christ.” When God sees me He sees Jesus and all that Jesus has done for me because I am now “in Christ.”

BUT, our personal sanctification does not stop there. God allows us to stay in this world and “to grow up into Christ” which is our head. In other words, to become all that God has already made us to be in Christ.

God uses His Spirit to work in our lives to make us more like Jesus, and this we call “sanctification.” God also uses the Church and individual Christians to help grow us up in Christ and be part of our sanctification. You can help my sanctification by teaching me something, or holding me accountable, or admonishing me or encouraging me. There are many ways that you, as my sister in Christ can participate in my sanctification to help me grow in Christ Jesus.

So it appears that I may have been talking about “sanctification” and you are talking about justification. Justification is an individual thing, the way we get saved. Sanctification is something done within the body of Christ as we interact and are taught and encouraged by other Belkievrs, all under the administration of the Holy Spirit who does the actual sanctifying work in our lives. This is why participation with other Believers is so important.

Did you know that wives also sanctify their unbelieving husbands? “For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy” I Cor. 7:14). This is a mystery, but many husbands come to Christ because of their believing wife.

So putting it all together, if a husband is to do “likewise” as Christ does for the church, the husband is responsible to participate in his wife’s sanctification. He cannot save her, but he can help her grow up into Christ Jesus after she is saved.

Lori will stand on her own responsibility for her salvation, but I will be held accountable as her husband for being a part, and a large participant in her sanctification, and how she grew in the Lord. Husbands should know this and take their responsibility seriously. Wives help in the sanctification of their husbands, as much or more, but they are not in the same way held accountable for their husband’s growing up in Christ. That is primarily the role of the Spirit and other godly men in the Church.

I hope this is a help in bridging our misunderstanding. I can tell you are a fine Believer and I have no issues with you. I think Birdie is right that our limitation is the brief written words that we must write to each other, instead of being able to have a quick verbal dialogue that might have cleared this up long ago .
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Sarah's Daughter · 584 weeks ago

Excellent post, Ken and Lori!
it never ceases to amaze me the lengths we will go to to try to twist ourselves out of obeying the word...from casting dispersions on brothers and sisters who actually APPLY it, to resorting to deeming them as arrogant or some other label so we can not feel our own conviction at how we disobey the Lord in our marriages and in our lives. Reading some of the comments I half expected to see the card always played by the losing hand..."legalist"...pulled out (it may have been and I missed it). To those women in rebellion in the comments above...HOW you obey your husband is HOW you obey the Lord. And dear sisters...He shall not argue with you, but put you under even harder discipline to work the hardness and selfishness out of your hearts. So weird that basic truth and application of God's word causes such a stir, when it SHOULD be a wonderful example of how the application actually is applied, and cause some serious repentance in the hearts of women who obviously like what God says as long as it either does not apply to them or they do not have to DO it. It is no wonder Christ calls us the remnant. Please keep on posting truth and application....there are some of us who appreciate it, and find it to be refreshing and a blessing indeed! Thanks Lori and Ken!
1 reply · active 580 weeks ago

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