Lori’s posts questioning Should Husbands Ever Discipline Their Wives? created quite a bit of excitement last week. I am writing this post today because I have sent her to her room without lunch to discipline her for posting such controversial things. At least she should not be publishing them while she is suffering with brutal headaches when I am out of town and cannot support her!
It is an amazing thing to see how Christian women respond to a husband’s attempt to discipline his wife as illustrated by Sunshine Mary’s missing dishwasher. In her recent post, Sunshine Mary did a great job of putting it all into perspective to show how some Christian women really think about a husband’s role and responsibility as head and leader of the marriage. It shows that there is a lot of work that needs to be done to change the thinking and behavior of Christian wives if they desire to follow the leadership of a loving Christian husband.
Why are Christian men impotent when it comes to leading their marriage forward? Well, read the Facebook comments as listed in Sunshine Mary's Post and you will quickly see ten reasons why a Christian husband is often powerless to provide much true leadership. Instead, he is often the follower in the marriage.
Okay, Lori is not in her room or being disciplined, but it is almost humorous to read the responses of Christian women concerning a husband’s obligation to instill self-discipline within the Christian marriage. Lori and I do not claim to have all the answers to this important topic, nor do we expect you to submit to us on this subject, as one reader has accused. We simply want to help marriages think through how much authority and leadership should a wife submit to, especially if her husband is a godly Christian man
Because if a wife will not follow, will not submit, not listen nor obey, how can the husband lead? If a godly wife who wants a godly marriage decides each day what is, and is not acceptable from her husband’s leadership, who is really leading her?
It is an amazing thing to see how Christian women respond to a husband’s attempt to discipline his wife as illustrated by Sunshine Mary’s missing dishwasher. In her recent post, Sunshine Mary did a great job of putting it all into perspective to show how some Christian women really think about a husband’s role and responsibility as head and leader of the marriage. It shows that there is a lot of work that needs to be done to change the thinking and behavior of Christian wives if they desire to follow the leadership of a loving Christian husband.
Why are Christian men impotent when it comes to leading their marriage forward? Well, read the Facebook comments as listed in Sunshine Mary's Post and you will quickly see ten reasons why a Christian husband is often powerless to provide much true leadership. Instead, he is often the follower in the marriage.
Okay, Lori is not in her room or being disciplined, but it is almost humorous to read the responses of Christian women concerning a husband’s obligation to instill self-discipline within the Christian marriage. Lori and I do not claim to have all the answers to this important topic, nor do we expect you to submit to us on this subject, as one reader has accused. We simply want to help marriages think through how much authority and leadership should a wife submit to, especially if her husband is a godly Christian man
Because if a wife will not follow, will not submit, not listen nor obey, how can the husband lead? If a godly wife who wants a godly marriage decides each day what is, and is not acceptable from her husband’s leadership, who is really leading her?
I have personally lived as a loving, imperfect Christian husband for 33 years now, and I can tell you that for some 20 of those years I was much more submissive to Lori than she was to me. Why? Read Sunshine Mary’s post and see the ten reasons why, and especially number 10. I was afraid that my godly wife would rebel and maybe put me in the dishwasher or punish me for my attempts at leadership. More than that I was told by other godly men that all I could do was love her. This was so wrong! Love from a husband that does not lead and sanctify his wife is not true love at all.
I wrote this in response to one of the comments ~
Certainly the idea of a husband disciplining a wife is foreign to you, yet the irony is that your husband probably punishes you regularly. Most husbands and wives do it, or in my case did it. As soon as we do not like something our spouse is doing we punish with our words, moods, anger and snide remarks. We punish with our silence and by withholding love and affection. In the average marriage, and even the Christian marriage, such punishments are given often, and sometimes every day.
How do we break out of the cycle of punishment and into a loving and godly marriage? By doing things God’s ways. It was Karen who brought up the very important and correct Biblical view that when a man and woman get married they become ONE, and one flesh. And Karen asks, “Who disciplines their own flesh?”
Well, I do. And I venture to say that almost every reasonable and successful person in life, Christian or non-christian also disciplines their own flesh. As a matter of fact, we have a word for this called self-discipline and most of you reading this post pride yourselves on how much self-discipline you have in life; how you take care of yourself, push away from the table when full, or turn down a desert. How you make yourself go to bed at a reasonable hour even though your best show is on TV because you know you need to be fresh for tomorrow. How you give yourself consequences when you say things that you should not to a friend, and make yourself call up the friend, apologize and tell them you are buying dinner next time.
The fact is that the two becoming one flesh does not mean that flesh does not have to discipline itself. Precisely because it is the flesh it MUST discipline itself. Paul says that the flesh wars against the Spirit and makes it clear that the Believer is to keep his/her/our married flesh under control with self-discipline so that we might serve God and not be disqualified from ministry.
Self-discipline is not only something we value in our lives, but it is perhaps the most important habit that leads to personal, professional and spiritual growth. God values discipline as the Bible says ~
“For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.” {Hebrews 12:11}.
“But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” {2 Corinthians 8:27}.
Now follow with my logic and tell me where things may not add up in your mind ~
1. If self-discipline is to be prized and valued in a godly believer,
+
2. Husband and wife are one flesh and the wife is to submit to her husband,
+
3. The husband is the head of the wife, which means he is to be the leader,
+
4. The husband is to be loving towards his wife as Christ sacrificially loves the church,
=
The husband must be responsible for the loving self-discipline of the marriage both for himself and his wife as one flesh.
Does it not stand to reason that it is the head and husband of the marriage that is to exercise self-discipline in the marriage, and if this self-discipline involves his own flesh, his wife, that she should graciously accept the discipline and respect and honor him for trying to help create a godly, orderly, loving marriage?
I am sure we will hear an earful from many who agree and disagree with our Biblical logic on this subject as it is never taught in the church, probably out of fear. Yes, fear that a husband will abuse his position. Fear that a husband will disrespect his wife in the way that he gives her discipline. Fear that the 65% majority that are women sitting on church pews will punish the pastor and the church by closing their pocketbooks, walking away, or worse yet, demand a session with the busy pastor, all because he was willing to explore such a necessary subject concerning the Christian marriage.
If you are not convinced that many Christian men live in fear of their wives just read the Sunshine Mary's Post with Facebook comments from Christian women who say that if their husband tried to discipline them, their husband would end up in the dishwasher or kicked out of the marriage.
Just a little more food for thought as I close this post. Ask yourself not what “husbands” can and cannot do to discipline “wives,” but instead what are you willing to allow your husband to do if he asks to enact modest discipline in your own marriage. One of the favorite excuses I see is the unwillingness to apply certain principles to ALL marriages, because of the potential for abuse, so of course, if it is not to be applied universally, why should it be applied in my own marriage?
Yes, there is the potential for abuse if some wives give carte blanche to an unloving husband. We are not talking about unloving husbands, but the godly great, imperfect guy who you chose to marry. Right? And who you want to be your godly leader of a husband. Right? What about that guy? Can you trust him to lead you and help discipline your flesh?
Will you go to him and discuss this important area of the self-discipline of your marriage and ask if he would like to explore how the two of you might hold each other accountable for moving your marriage forward into more good times, less punishment and more loving ways? Or does your husband have to love you perfectly before you will think about submission and the self-discipline of your marriage?
I believe this discipline should begin with a husband's willingness to set good and noble ideals for the marriage and then hold himself and his wife accountable for living up to those ideals. The one-flesh needs training in self-discipline, and it is with consequences that the flesh is trained.
A wife is an equal and full partner in the one-flesh marriage, but the husband is the head, and the head of any body always has the control and responsibility. So ask your head how he wants to do things in your marriage, and give him permission to lead you in any way he believes is best, so long as he keeps in mind just one principle below, even if he applies it imperfectly. He cannot become a great leader if you do not let him lead.
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church
and gave himself up for her.
Ephesians 5:25
Logging you in...
Kim · 582 weeks ago
Gently Led · 582 weeks ago
Your ministry is helping me to submit to and not argue with my husband. We are grateful.
Susan · 582 weeks ago
shannon · 582 weeks ago
helen · 582 weeks ago
Helen UK
Amanda Lou · 582 weeks ago
Cynthia · 582 weeks ago
2. Titus 2 talks about older women - not husbands - instructing younger women. Titus 2 and 3 also make it clear that submission and obedience is given not only to husbands, but also to masters and rulers. At the time, this would have meant submitting to and obeying non-Christian authority, and it would NOT have been the intention to learn discipline from these sources.
3. The explicit instruction given to Christian husbands is simply to love their wives, not to impose discipline. Ephesians also makes it clear that Christians are to be kind and tenderhearted and forgiving to each other.
Jilly · 582 weeks ago
Courtney · 582 weeks ago
Ever curious,
Courtney
P.S. I think your logic based on following the Bible makes sense and I was actually very surprised by last week's opposition to the idea. I didn't expect it to be so controversial among Biblical literalists. Of course, I don't personally agree that the Bible is what we should base our lives on, but if I did, I think I'd have to be in your camp. Otherwise, it would seem to me like picking-and-choosing, or saying one thing but doing another.
Jilly · 582 weeks ago
Ken · 582 weeks ago
If you referring to the silly comments you wrote on Facebook? Entrapment would apply if there was any intent to entrap, which there was none. But one does have to be careful as there is a permanent record of all silly things said when it gets onto the Internet. We had no idea SSM would create such an entertaining, yet true, blog post out of the many comments. That was something she did on her own.
Ken · 582 weeks ago
You are correct on 1 and 3 but 2 makes no sense. I believe that God has purposefully left out the explicit discipline of a wife by a husband to insure that any discipline is reasonable. Imagine what might be happening if God had left explicit instructions, "Husbands discipline your wives."
You write: "At the time, this would have meant submitting to and obeying non-Christian authority, and it would NOT have been the intention to learn discipline from these sources." This makes no sense.
Of course many Christian’s submitted to their masters and to their rulers and if discipline is to be learned, we learn it by submitting. God specifically tells us to submit to our rulers.
Is not Jesus our model in all things? What do you do about this verse if it is not a model for all of us under authority? “Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered” (Heb 5:8).
You cannot say that all Christians are to be submissive and be willing to accept discipline from some others… rulers… elders … parents … one another … yet for some reason wives are excluded?
“Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account.” (Heb 13:17) Is the husband not the leader of the wife?
The list goes on for submission and obedience to all who have authority over us. I recently disciplined 8 of my staff members by removing $1 from their yearend bonus for every minute they were late past 5 minutes. Are you saying that I as their boss cannot discipline them in that way and give their bonus money to those who arrived on time? Of course I can AND every one of them accepted it graciously as fair because they knew the rules in advance.
“For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it” (Heb 12:11). Is the all not ALL?
Finally, you are very correct on #3. If the husband’s attempts at discipline in the marriage are not loving, then it is outside of God’s design and will, BUT God's Word seems to imply that any person under any discipline can learn and grow as a believer.
Ken · 582 weeks ago
I will try to respond as Lori is actually going out to lunch with her sisters and Mom! Yaay! She is starting to feel better after three weeks of pure misery.
First, I love your honesty Courtney. If anyone is to take the Bible for what it teaches, they have to accept that a husband as leader must be given some leeway to lead as he feels is best for his wife. Yes, it must always be done in love, but we spanked our kids in love and had no issue with doing it because we knew it was for their long term better good.
OK, so let’s say spanking is not the best way to approach getting a wife up at 5:00 a.m. for working out… what can be done? Cynthia, if you and your husband agreed together that you were to wake up early with him and work out, then a week later you just rolled over in bed and broke your commitment, what should your husband do? You just admitted that it was for your own good, so does a loving husband just let you stay in bed and get out of shape?
Almost all discipline requires some form of consent on the part of the spouse and that is why talking things out in advance and setting discipline steps together is ideal. So I might say to Lori after the first day she violated our commitment to work out at 5:00 a.m.: “Did we not agree that we would get up together and go work out? If 5:00 am is too hard for you how about 5:00 p.m. I know you do not like working out in the evenings, but you do have a choice.”
She says, “No, I just don’t think I want to work out with you.”
I say, “So what you are really saying is that you want to work out sporadically like once a week, like you have been doing, and go completely against your New Year’s resolution and your commitments to me and to yourself? I tell you what, you pick any time of day you want to work out, but if you have not worked out the four times a week that we agreed to do, at least for the next two months, then I am going to think twice about … many options: 1) having you go to the Bay area and spend a week with your friends; 2) I am not having Margo clean the house next month; 3) I am not going to eat your big salads but two days for every day you work out; 4) You agreed that I could splash some water on you to get you out of bed??? .
I know it may seem a bit silly, and it is hard to find creative discipline, but when you have a perfect wife like mine is it is really hard because she never wants anything or spends much! But she did want a new refrigerator so I could have used that for motivation. A rational wife can set her own consequences with her husband, and if she agrees that she wants to be splashed with water when she does not get out of bed at 5 am then have some fun with it. The consequences do not have to be all doom and gloom, especially if she agrees to them.
I counseled a husband yesterday to discipline his wife by saying to her that each time she scolded him or was angry in her tone asking him anything he would not do it until she had apologized to him. I told him leave the room each time she got angry and leave the house each time she followed him into the room. I told him to hold her arms and tell her that she was ton stop misbehaving, being angry with him all day and calling him names if she wanted any cooperation from with helping around the house or with the kid.
Now, you tell me what is the Christian husband supposed to do with his wife who calls herself a Christian, but cannot control her temper? Nothing at all? How about set up a separate checking account and not let her touch a dime of his money until she repents?
To assume that all Christian wives are so nice, disciplined, non-controlling, able to keep their commitments like you two is so far from the truth. The truth is that half of Christian wives and half of Christian husbands both need discipline in their lives and for the wife, she is to submit to her husband’s leadership where she can receive the discipline she needs to become the wife God intends her to be.
I can give you a long list of difficult Christian wives that I know whose husbands should be applying some forms of discipline to regain their rightful place as the leader of their home and marriage. Instead they wimp out precisely because of the results shown in the Facebook comments. It is really shocking to see how many Christian women believe in submission, then turn around and tell their husbands how he is supposed to lead them. That is the point of the post that Lori asked me to write. I was in that boat with her for too many years, and it was her desire to start being submissive coupled with my willingness to start creating consequences that helped the Holy Spirit turn our marriage around.
Yes, proceed with caution, but never in anger or outside of love.
helen · 582 weeks ago
so glad Lori is starting to feel better. Blessings to you and her.
Helen UK
Ken · 582 weeks ago
I hear what you are saying, but the scriptures Christ as our model. ALL his suffering was unjust and unwarranted and yet "he learned obedience through what he suffered” (Heb 5:8).
We can learn from all methods of discipline and suffering. For that matter, Lori might say that many of the women she has counseled have learned lots about God, discipline and becoming better people precisely by the sufferings they accepted from their disobedient husbands. If a wife is to win her disobedient husband back by her godly behavior, will that not include some suffering?
BUT what we are discussing here is godly and good husbands who may choose to use disciple of some sort with their wives to help their wives become not just better wives, but better people. If a boss is doing this with employees, and the govt with its citizens, why are wives exempt from the leadership of their husbands?
Remember, we are not saying a husband has to discipline his wife, nor are we saying this should be a regular thing. What we are asking thoughtful believers to think about is IF a husband has the obligation to help his wife grow up in Christ Jesus and to be a better wife? If he is to sanctify her as Christ does the church, does that include primarily loving her into being a better wife, and does that love include at times discipline.
The interesting thing about this discussion is that wives have been regularly disciplining their husbands, or punishing them to train them, even though they have much less authority to do so than husbands do. Think about all the frowns, the snide remarks, the moods, the sex withheld, sometimes yelling, crying, saying mean things, and the tearing down of a husband, yet you want to take exception to a husband lovingly using discipline on a wife, often in prearranged and pre-communicated ways?
jsr · 582 weeks ago
I have had a couple of honest comments/questions deleted over the past few months. I suppose they were viewed as causing division. However, they were honest explorations of difficult topics. If you are willing, I would appreciate being able to contact you privately via email for a few of these topics. Thanks.
Ken · 582 weeks ago
Guest · 579 weeks ago